Another small point: empty weight was 8,200 with 5,000 pounds of fuel that plane would be over gross with no crew

You can see the shortcoming of the IISP. That's the primary driver of me wanting a II with the gross weight increase. Standard II gross is 13,100; gross weight increase allows up to 14,100 where you could carry full fuel and a decent payload. Of course, I wouldn't need full fuel often, but nice capability when needed.

Got home and looked at the books. They say the II ramp weight is 13,500 with takeoff gross if 13,300. The gross weight increase to 14,100 is on a bird we're looking at.

Dave, are there any structural differences for the model with a higher gross wieght?

With respect to T/Rs I've been told that they are there to let everyone know you have arrived.

I've been told there are not, but haven't researched it. Originally, the single pilot waiver was a bigger deal and one could fly the SP without the additional training required. In the II, one has to get typed as a crew, the pass another single pilot test. To fly a II as single pilot, the plane had to meet five requirements such as gear being on the left. My understanding is all later models incorporated those requirements. Maybe someone else will chime in.

I've been told there are not, but haven't researched it. Originally, the single pilot waiver was a bigger deal and one could fly the SP without the additional training required. In the II, one has to get typed as a crew, the pass another single pilot test. To fly a II as single pilot, the plane had to meet five requirements such as gear being on the left. My understanding is all later models incorporated those requirements. Maybe someone else will chime in.

Thanks Steve. Still figuring all this out as you can see. If one wants full fuel and a reasonable payload, sounds like the II with the gross weight increase is the way to go. That's really a paperwork issue and different tires as is the C90 that I have. Of course, one has to pay for that if not already there.

Yes, the II with the GW increase is a great way to go. It makes the plane much more useful for longer flights with payload as you mentioned. Unfortunately, the 4050 paperwork does cost $$$. I don't know for sure, but I've had a couple people tell me that they could get the IISP the high GW kit, but it has to be operated 2 pilots when over 12,500#. I'm not sure on that and have never flown one with that paperwork.

Sean at RAS should be able to clarify all of this for you the first day in class. It's a great way to learn the history of the models and understand all of the planes that you will be eligible to fly with the CE 500 on your license.

I believe the GW increase was a Branson Mod.

Good Evening Steven,

You hit the nail on the head with that one. I don't know that I've ever run into a single topic that generated as much confusion and which was compounded by so much incorrect information as the single pilot exemption options for the CE500 series. - I'm not suggesting that anything you have offered is incorrect, just agreeing with what you've already stated.

Part of the problem is that there are quite a few exemptions floating around out there now and while most of them provide the same privileges (most allow for single pilot ops in any CE500 series airplane that meets the minimum equipment requirements mentioned above) there is just enough variation to generate mass confusion.

The 4050 exemption you mentioned is "owned" by Cessna and I believe it's the exemption that Flight Safety typically uses.

Sierra Industries holds exemption 5517. It is subject to the aircraft being outfitted with certain STCs. I don't believe Sierra is using their exemption much anymore.

Shannon & Associates, LLC holds exemption 6480. This is one of the oddballs as it is somehow tied to a specific aircraft serial number as an STC and also has a specific exclusion that it MAY NOT be utilized in any CE500 series aircraft having the landing gear control located to the right of the aircraft center line.

I fly under exemption 10004B which is owned by Front Range Executive Flight Training. It allows single pilot ops in all CE500 series aircraft (500, 550, S550, 552, 560). I believe the 4050 exemption works this way as well.

There are several others and all of them have slight differences. Things like minimum pilot time, medical certificate requirements, types of approaches permitted, etc. Again, just enough to really get everyone good and confused when it comes time to select your training vendor!

Of course to be eligible for any of these exemptions one must first hold a CE500 type rating. That means that if you want to get your initial type rating and single pilot waiver at the same time (as I did) you get to go through two full check rides, more or less back-to-back. The first ride is of course your initial CE500 type ride, once that is satisfactorily completed and signed off then you turn around and do a second full type ride for your SPW, only this time you don't get to use the DE as your second in command (naturally). Depending on the wording in the exemption being used you may also have a few additional maneuvers (circling approaches) to complete that aren't part of the initial CE500 type ride.

With regard to training costs on the 551 vs the 550 with SPW. Now that the annual SPW renewal check ride has been deemed to meet the requirements of the 61.58 ride, I suspect that the annual training costs are quite similar between the two planes. I would venture to say that well over 90% of the part 91 operators out there will be subject to insurance requirements calling for formal annual recurrent training and I don't expect that there is much difference between the cost of a recurrent session with a 61.58 ride in a 551 (per the new requirements) and a recurrent session with a SPW renewal ride in a 550. Note - not all of the exemptions have been approved to meet the requirements of a 61.58 ride, so it is possible that a person may have to do both a yearly 61.58 ride and a SPW renewal ride if they happen to be operating under one of the exemptions that has not been approved.

To me, I have a hard time accepting the idea that the 551, with its lower gross weight is a more valuable aircraft than a 550 when you take into consideration the availability and relative ease of the various single pilot exemptions out there. I understand that there's always a chance that the FAA could refuse to renew the exemptions or even pull them all together, but I think (I hope) that the chances of that are pretty unlikely, unless of course a bunch of us SPW guys start burying our birds in smoking holes in the ground.

I think Dave is on the right track. The 551 doesn't meet his needs (payload) and the S550 doesn't really offer any additional capability that would be advantageous on the majority of his missions beyond what the straight 550 already offers so there's not much sense in spending the extra money.

One thing is for certain. When Dave finally pulls the trigger, he's going to be very happy that he did so! - We'll probably have to start a new thread for that! ha ha

John IV

^^^^^Oh my John! You put all of that down, that's a lot of work. I have known all of what you typed at one point or another but couldn't put it all together in this thread. Everyone interested in flying Citation 500 series planes, copy and paste John's post(and go back and like that post!).

It would take the average guy years to learn all of that and 99.9% of people that think they know it, don't. FAA inspectors have to look all of this up for the most part. DPE's are a little better versed, but that's all great info. You could look, ask, sniff for years and wouldn't be able to find it in such a concise format.


Yes, Dave is going to have a hoot of a time and I'm sure it will be a new thread.

John has been a great resource for me many times including when flying previous planes. Great to have folks like him and Steven on here giving up their time to clear up a lot of issues for us. I'm trying to do that for other folks trying to learn about this plane in my own blundering way.

Good Morning Gentlemen,

Wow, thank you both very much. That should put me on quite the ego trip for the rest of the weekend! Ha ha

Of course my secret is to just write really long posts that make people's eyes glass over while reading. When they are finished reading they are convinced that I must have written something worthwhile because I had so much to say!

Have a great weekend.

John IV

Here is the detail:

PUBLIC FINANCE
PART 1 COMPTROLLER OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
CHAPTER 3 TAX ADMINISTRATION
SUBCHAPTER O STATE AND LOCAL SALES AND USE TAXES
RULE §3.316 Occasional Sales; Joint Ownership Transfers; Sales by Senior Citizens' Organizations; Sales by University and College Student Organizations; and Sales by Nonprofit Animal Shelters
(a) Sales exempt. A taxable item that is sold or purchased by way of an occasional sale is exempt from sales and use taxes, except as provided by subsection (i) of this section.
(b) Occasional sales by persons not in the business of selling, leasing, or renting.
(1) One or two sales of taxable items, other than an amusement service, during any 12-month period by a person who does not hold himself out as engaged (or who does not habitually engage) in the business of selling taxable items are occasional sales.
(2) The third sale of a taxable item in a 12-month period by a person not previously in the business of selling, leasing, or renting taxable items causes that person to become a retailer. Tax must be collected and reported on the third sale and all subsequent sales unless the sale qualifies for exemption under subsection (d) or (e) of this section. If three or more sales are made in a 12-month period, then the person must obtain a permit. See §3.286 of this title (relating to Seller's and Purchaser's Responsibilities). Example: A lump-sum contractor sells a backhoe in October, a typewriter in December and a crane in February. The contractor has not sold, leased or rented any construction equipment prior to the sale of the backhoe; therefore, the contractor can sell the backhoe and typewriter tax free as occasional sales. The sale of the crane is the third sale within 12 months from the sale of the back-hoe. The sale of the crane is not an occasional sale. The contractor must obtain a permit, collect tax on the sale of the crane and, until an intervening 12 months have passed between sales, all subsequent sales of taxable items.

Here is the detail:

PUBLIC FINANCE
PART 1 COMPTROLLER OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
CHAPTER 3 TAX ADMINISTRATION
SUBCHAPTER O STATE AND LOCAL SALES AND USE TAXES
RULE §3.316 Occasional Sales; Joint Ownership Transfers; Sales by Senior Citizens' Organizations; Sales by University and College Student Organizations; and Sales by Nonprofit Animal Shelters
(a) Sales exempt. A taxable item that is sold or purchased by way of an occasional sale is exempt from sales and use taxes, except as provided by subsection (i) of this section.
(b) Occasional sales by persons not in the business of selling, leasing, or renting.
(1) One or two sales of taxable items, other than an amusement service, during any 12-month period by a person who does not hold himself out as engaged (or who does not habitually engage) in the business of selling taxable items are occasional sales.
(2) The third sale of a taxable item in a 12-month period by a person not previously in the business of selling, leasing, or renting taxable items causes that person to become a retailer. Tax must be collected and reported on the third sale and all subsequent sales unless the sale qualifies for exemption under subsection (d) or (e) of this section. If three or more sales are made in a 12-month period, then the person must obtain a permit. See §3.286 of this title (relating to Seller's and Purchaser's Responsibilities). Example: A lump-sum contractor sells a backhoe in October, a typewriter in December and a crane in February. The contractor has not sold, leased or rented any construction equipment prior to the sale of the backhoe; therefore, the contractor can sell the backhoe and typewriter tax free as occasional sales. The sale of the crane is the third sale within 12 months from the sale of the back-hoe. The sale of the crane is not an occasional sale. The contractor must obtain a permit, collect tax on the sale of the crane and, until an intervening 12 months have passed between sales, all subsequent sales of taxable items.

Not at all...sale of an aircraft by any companies who ever hold a sales tax permit in any states will disqualify the purchaser from claiming the occasional sale exemption.

Buying a plane from a company selling widgets or hamburgers do not qualify.

Texas comptroller's office is not exactly staffed with folks sympathetic to GA, unfortunately.

If you buy from an individual, yes, you can meet the requirements of the exemption.

If an LLC or corporation is the seller, you need to to be doing a lot of investigative work to see if the plane can meet the requirements.

I have seen an exemption denied, simply because the affidavit was not dated by the seller, no joke!