These shops don't do the HSI, they send to Pratt or Dallas. Clearly there is a difference here other than markup. Nothing was done on Pennman's invoice other than the inspection.

Right.. so I'm trying to find out if what happens if nothing is needed when going to Pratt. My understanding is that "needed" is relative and that Pratt is going to replace a bunch of blades, the burner can etc. that were not replaced on Pennman's. you're not paying the 30k for nothing. what it means over a full overhaul cycle is unclear to me, but I'm inquiring to Pratt now.

These shops don't do the HSI, they send to Pratt or Dallas. Clearly there is a difference here other than markup. Nothing was done on Pennman's invoice other than the inspection.

Just a couple of things to throw out here, I love the debate about which is best, but the reality is that the market is very self leveling, what I mean by that is that smart people are buying these airplanes, if an airplane has an inherent weakness it shows up in resale value.

These are hilights, not assessments;

M600 great airplane, new airplane and technology, should be cheap to operate the Meridians have a long history of being the lowest op cost of any common turboprop. The incentives from Piper are enough to make even a skeptic take a second look. As a move up from a Cirrus SR22... the M600 is my first recommendation.

TBM also a great airplane. I'll always have a soft spot for the Mooney and at the end of the day, it's a Mooney. Same exact strengths and weaknesses. Fast but small when compared to the Pilatus or King Air. It is built like a tank and you have to admire how much airplane it is... TBM owners seem to always love their airplanes. It's a way to go fast without a type rating and the op cost isn't horrible. It does cost more to properly maintain a TBM than most transition buyers expect, so we cover that early on, but it's worth it, the TBM has its weaknesses but it does what nothing else does.

Pilatus is the ultimate SETP, period. The only negative is that it's a little slow when compared to the King Air or TBM, but it does everything else GREAT. Like the TBM, the maintenance tends to be a little higher than you would expect, but they both make up for it with fuel savings. The resale value of the Pilatus is unlike anything I have ever seen. If you are a savvy buyer and have the budget, you can own a Pilatus for a very low overall cost for term of ownership, better than almost anything. The Pilatus is a Suburban that gets good gas mileage. The utility is unmatched and having an airstair behind the cockpit is a bigger deal for an owner pilot that you might think.

A couple of engine points and I'll go back to work...

Covington is a great shop, they are building their name and reputation in the private aircraft world. They are buying their market share and that is smart. From a resale point of view you need to be careful. If I'm buying a 25 year old airplane with second or third run motors and they (or Prime) did the hots, I don't even give it a second thought. If I'm buying a first run, 10 year old airplane, that's a problem.

There are a lot of buyers who will not buy an airplane unless it has DOF Hots / Overhauls.

We use Standard Aero for engine events and borescope inspections, we have since they were Vector. I have been to their PT6 facility in PEI and can tell you they are first class and one of the nicest groups of people you'll ever meet.

It's not that Mather or any other shop is up to no good, they charge what they charge because there's a lot involved in participating in an engine event, labor and shipping, liability. There's more to an MRO doing something like that than you might think, and yes they do like that dirty word... profit. But, when you look at having maintenance and hots done at the same time, the convenience and peace of mind in having a trusted shop handle it all for you, it makes sense.

Here's the reality, just doing the HSI on a big Pratt at a non-DOF shop should probably be $15k, Covington is buying market at half that. Good for them. A shop like Mather is paying $20k or more for a DOF shop to do the work, putting a reasonable mark-up on it, plus the labor to pull the hot section and ship it to the overhaul facility, get it back, reinstall it and do engine runs.

I wouldn't say it's a bargain, but they aren't ripping anyone off.

Note: Covington may be a DOF shop now, I had heard they were going to be, don't want to spread any misinformation.

around 25k for insurance.
hangar is 35k
annuals have averaged 30k per year for me. Last year was very little, this year very high, but I had some life limit items replaced.
fly about 300hrs per year.
I rarely paid more than $3 for JetA, although it will be higher this year. say 3.50

For me to fly from KTEX to KFXE today is about 5hr 40min. Decent tailwind. I land with 700lbs of fuel.

Fuel burn for that trip is 365 pph or 55gph for the block, so lets call it 60gph

So 25+23+30 for flying out the door or say 115k per annum.
Fuel per hour is 60 * 3.5 *300 or $63,000

So total for 300 hrs is 178,000 or 593.33 per hr. Actually cheaper than your Meridian

So $600 per hour..........
Read it and weep

Seeing that you're an expert in the biz let me help you out.
There are four approved overhaul shops in the US. The only reason to use them is if your engine still has items within the warranty, that Pratt will replace minus usage.

Those are
Dallas Airmotive
Standard Aero
Pratt themselve

and my personal favorite.........COVINGTON!!!!!

all approved. They're not 'buying' there way into the repair business, they've been doing this for a fair bit of time. They're just less expensive.

Right.. so I'm trying to find out if what happens if nothing is needed when going to Pratt. My understanding is that "needed" is relative and that Pratt is going to replace a bunch of blades, the burner can etc. that were not replaced on Pennman's. you're not paying the 30k for nothing. what it means over a full overhaul cycle is unclear to me, but I'm inquiring to Pratt now.

If you can get an STC to run Mogas in an engine that's not certified for it, or to run a turbine on condition over TBO (MORE), surely it would be possible for some smart person to get an STC for to make exchange rotables and engine parts: compressor stages, turbine stages or burner cans etc. Maybe there even is?

It just seems like there should be many more options here. My 3rd stage turbine wheel is cycled out and my only two options are:

1. Buy new from Honeywell for an arm and a leg.
2. Find a used yellow tagged wheel with cycles left.

Why isn't there:

3. STC'd turbine wheel from Jimmy's Honest Turbine Wheels for $20K less?

It seem like it would be a gold mine. What am I missing?

you can do this now on part 91, don't need MORE

The original design data to know how the part was made.

The engineering effort to replicate the design.

The testing to verify the design works properly.

The documentation to get the FAA to approve the design.

The manufacturing know how to make the part.

The quality control system to monitor and track making the part.

The FAA PMA approval of your manufacturing and quality system.

The distribution system to deliver the part.

The marketing department to sell the part.

The liability insurance to stay in business if the part fails.

And finally, the capital to put all that together and hope you succeed before you go bankrupt.

So, not much, really, go for it.

Mike C.

I thought cycle-limited parts had to be replaced, even under part 91?

Penman- I'm a believer. we're about 2 yrs out from a HS, and I'm already planning.

Yes.

Life limited parts are limited, period. No over fly provisions, either. If you have 1 cycle left, you have 1 cycle, that's it.

Overhauls are optional under part 91. Inspections are mandatory, but they can include over fly provisions (+/- 50 hours say).

Mike C.

The original design data to know how the part was made.

The engineering effort to replicate the design.

The testing to verify the design works properly.

The documentation to get the FAA to approve the design.

The manufacturing know how to make the part.

The quality control system to monitor and track making the part.

The FAA PMA approval of your manufacturing and quality system.

The distribution system to deliver the part.

The marketing department to sell the part.

The liability insurance to stay i business if the part fails.

And finally, the capital to put all that together and hope you succeed before you go bankrupt.

So, not much, really, got for it.

Mike C.

around 25k for insurance.
hangar is 35k
annuals have averaged 30k per year for me. Last year was very little, this year very high, but I had some life limit items replaced.
fly about 300hrs per year.
I rarely paid more than $3 for JetA, although it will be higher this year. say 3.50

For me to fly from KTEX to KFXE today is about 5hr 40min. Decent tailwind. I land with 700lbs of fuel.

Fuel burn for that trip is 365 pph or 55gph for the block, so lets call it 60gph

So 25+23+30 for flying out the door or say 115k per annum.
Fuel per hour is 60 * 3.5 *300 or $63,000

So total for 300 hrs is 178,000 or 593.33 per hr. Actually cheaper than your Meridian

So $600 per hour..........
Read it and weep

Sorry, did not include the prop overhaul and engine. I think prop overhaul is like 20k and I'm actually not sure what the TBO is, although I know my time limit is up here in April, but that's not a significant hrly amount. Engine is say 350k if I do it myself or 500k if Adam manages your airplane

So add another 100 -140 for engine......

My insurance is with Tom Hauge, it's a goodun. Still went up considerably this year. I think the rate has much to do with the PC12 safety record.