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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 23:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
There are times when I read jet threads and think about how much better it would be to fly one. However, most of the time I read jet threads and come away thinking about how much more complicated and a PITA they are. Everything seems 10X more complex, 10X more difficult and 10X more expensive.

I’m quite certain that perspective will change someday but for now I use that to convince myself as to why I don’t need one...


What’s more complex? More difficult? Give you a pass on expensive.


Initial training, recurrent training, avionics changes / upgrades, flight planning, preflight to takeoff, flying (SIDS / STARS, crossing restrictions, etc).

Flying for me right now just seems so simple and easy. Nothing seems simple or easy about transitioning to, owning or flying a jet by comparison.

I say all that right now but I know when I add up my flight hours at the end of the year, I’ll be singing a different tune.
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Don Coburn
Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist
2004 SR22 G2


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 23:45 
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Joined: 10/24/12
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Location: Hamilton, AL (KHAB)
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You get comfortable with what you know. When I first started trying to learn to fly jets it was a little overwhelming. After about 200 hours I think I use more brain power when I get in a piston plane.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 23:50 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
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Username Protected wrote:
You get comfortable with what you know. When I first started trying to learn to fly jets it was a little overwhelming. After about 200 hours I think I use more brain power when I get in a piston plane.



Completely true.

Don:

Like the consultant you are you are focused on the “expenses”. The “revenue” side of things would be all the time and stress you get back around weather related issues. Especially ice and storms. Plus l,as you point out, the time you back.

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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 00:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Flying for me right now just seems so simple and easy. Nothing seems simple or easy about transitioning to, owning or flying a jet by comparison.

Imagine you have only flown a jet and you started reading threads about piston engine maintenance, mixture management (including about LOP), prop RPM control, cowl flaps, alternate air/carb heat, mag checks, fouled plugs, compression checks, and so on.

You'd think owning a piston aircraft would be WAY too complex.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 00:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
BTW, useful fuel is 3182 lbs...

You said you landed with 400 lbs, so that would be 2782 lbs used if you started with full tanks, which seems likely.

The planner says 2497 lbs for FL340, or 285 lbs less than used.

Winds higher than forecast plus routing?

Mike C.


The routing and ATC was fairly efficient this time. Largest difference was stronger winds than planned. I am usually within a few minutes of planned, and a very few percentage points on the fuel. This was unusual.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 01:13 
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The routing and ATC was fairly efficient this time. Largest difference was stronger winds than planned. I am usually within a few minutes of planned, and a very few percentage points on the fuel. This was unusual.

So you planned on landing fuel being 685 lbs based on the flight planner, but winds were worse and that reserve eroded to 400 lbs. That's a fair amount of loss, 285 lbs, equal to 43 minutes, 225 nm of cruise at FL340.

Now 400 lbs landing fuel is an emergency in a jet, but not that bad for a TPE331 twin, but you had to be watching the gauges pretty closely towards the end. How far were you from aborting the original destination and what was your land short option?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 01:50 
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The routing and ATC was fairly efficient this time. Largest difference was stronger winds than planned. I am usually within a few minutes of planned, and a very few percentage points on the fuel. This was unusual.

So you planned on landing fuel being 685 lbs based on the flight planner, but winds were worse and that reserve eroded to 400 lbs. That's a fair amount of loss, 285 lbs, equal to 43 minutes, 225 nm of cruise at FL340.

Now 400 lbs landing fuel is an emergency in a jet, but not that bad for a TPE331 twin, but you had to be watching the gauges pretty closely towards the end. How far were you from aborting the original destination and what was your land short option?

Mike C.



Hi Mike,

Yes, 400 lbs is not much in a 441 either, about 40 minutes down low. When I fly to Alaska I usually stop in Oregon to fill up so that I have several hours reserve at destination. On the way home from Alaska I usually go non-stop to Scottsdale, many more places to stop close to destination, and many more good options than in Alaska. This time the good alternates were many, with Winslow being one. If there was delays or IFR into the Scottsdale airport I would have stopped and refueled.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 08:43 
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Username Protected wrote:

That’s an awesome set up. Surprised they let you take out the FMS with a three tube Collins. I landed in Scottsdale the other day with 670lbs on the fuel gauges and 750 on the FMS. Hmmmm.


Capacitance fuel gauges are very accurate. Fuel gauges are the certified source. FMS fuel data is advisory and not part of the type certficate. FMS fuel can be synched with fuel gauges when there is a discrepency. If i remember correctly you clear the FOB field and it synchs with the fuel gauges.

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Allen


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 08:56 
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Joined: 12/19/11
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Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
Username Protected wrote:
Imagine you have only flown a jet and you started reading threads about piston engine maintenance, mixture management (including about LOP), prop RPM control, cowl flaps, alternate air/carb heat, mag checks, fouled plugs, compression checks, and so on.

You'd think owning a piston aircraft would be WAY too complex.

Mike C.


There's absolutely nothing complex about flying a piston SR22. No prop control, LOP is standard and you run at one power / mixture setting (30.5" and cyan marker on fuel flow), no cowl flaps. However, I agree with you on the mx. I'm getting really tired of maintaining piston engines. When you're flying 300-400 hrs / yr the mx is continuous. A turbine with little / no mx between major inspection intervals is incredibly attractive.

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Don Coburn
Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist
2004 SR22 G2


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 09:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
What's faster?

Jet with a fuel stop.

Mike C.

Not a chance.

Even if it were faster, it's still a fuel stop and a 4X gas bill. 4.5 hours in the jet is 5.5 to 6 hours in the Pilatus. So first you need a 4.5 hour jet (with reserves) that can also haul all the people and gear at the same time.

I time all my flights on "door to door" time. The clock starts when you walk out the front door of your house.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 10:04 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:

That’s an awesome set up. Surprised they let you take out the FMS with a three tube Collins. I landed in Scottsdale the other day with 670lbs on the fuel gauges and 750 on the FMS. Hmmmm.


Capacitance fuel gauges are very accurate. Fuel gauges are the certified source. FMS fuel data is advisory and not part of the type certficate. FMS fuel can be synched with fuel gauges when there is a discrepency. If i remember correctly you clear the FOB field and it synchs with the fuel gauges.


It does sync with the gauges. Shows a lower burn rate. As stated, probably requires an adjustment.

The key is that it took 100lbs MORE than what the gauges indicated. That’s 15%. Inaccurate gauges or something else like unusable fuel?
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Mark Hangen
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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 11:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jet with a fuel stop.
Not a chance.

Sure, a Premier will do it with the fuel stop faster than the 441. It would be ~4.5 hours flying, 1 hour fuel stop, 5.5 hours total, saving close to 2 hours over the 441.

S550 with Williams will do it non stop in about 5 hours.

Quote:
Even if it were faster, it's still a fuel stop and a 4X gas bill.

Your PC-12 requires a fuel stop on this trip, too. You'd be looking at a ground speed of ~220 knots with that headwind. Door to door, you are looking at 9+ hours, a very long day of flying.

And the roughly $2M more you paid for it buys a lot of fuel.

But as the jets pass you, you can always feel good about being cheaper.

Mike C.
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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 12:18 
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JC gets the $2MM back when he sells it so that doesn't count.

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John Lockhart
Phoenix, AZ
Ridgway, CO


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 12:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
JC gets the $2MM back when he sells it so that doesn't count.

$2M tied up is $100K/year cost of money, at least.

That is ~30,000 gallons of fuel per year.

That likely covers the extra fuel a jet would burn doing his missions.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 12:42 
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Mark,

Not sure about the Universal FMS in the CJ2 but most FMSes use the gauge fuel to start and then calculate fuel remaining based on FF from the DAU. I’ve never seen one that was exact but I know most FMSes can be adjusted with a FF bias. You’d have to dig in the book to find out how.


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