BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 15:57

Username Protected wrote:

There is just no other in-cabin experience in the class that compares to the SF50.

Shame it doesn't fly at FL410 behind two jet engines. Then it would be a nice cabin AND better range, speed, economy, safety, redundancy, quiet, etc.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 16:00

Username Protected wrote:

I think Cirrus is far more "established" than Piper.

Not in making, and supporting, turbine airplanes.

Piper has made more types of airplane, more quantity of airplanes, for far more decades, than Cirrus. Cirrus was basically a single product company, the SR series, until the SF50.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 16:05

Username Protected wrote:

Then it would cost $7MM.

No, it wouldn't.

Having two smaller engines doesn't cost $5M more. It might, in fact, be cheaper when development and liability costs are added up. There are a lot of oddities on the SF50 due to the single engine setup that would go away.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 16:06

Username Protected wrote:

Then it would cost $7MM.

No, it wouldn't.

Having two smaller engines doesn't cost $5M more. It might, in fact, be cheaper when development and liability costs are added up. There are a lot of oddities on the SF50 due to the single engine setup that would go away.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 16:18

Username Protected wrote:

Then explain why there are no 2 engine jets as cheap as you claim.

The Eclipse EA500 sold for less than the SF50.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 16:25

Username Protected wrote:

The Eclipse EA500 sold for less than the SF50.

Mike C.

Horrible example. 1. They're out of business. 2. The jet was crap. 3. That was in 2007.

If they launched the Canada version with Garmin and all the mods they should have launched with in 2007 it would be $4MM+.

There are loads of 2 engine mini jets on the market right now. If what you say is true.... how come they're all close to $5MM?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 16:34

And we’ve made full circle.....Mike doesn’t like it.
I don’t need a jet. I want a jet.
I can afford 3 4 5 or 6mil for a jet.
I could perhaps maybe if all the stars align afford this one.
This will be my last plane. I’m turning 65 for crying out loud.
I have no commercial missions to Complete. This plane will do everything I need euh want. Heck, Red bo does.
Jeesh guys lighten up.
Have you sat in that thing?????

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 16:44

Username Protected wrote:

And we’ve made full circle.....Mike doesn’t like it.
I don’t need a jet. I want a jet.
I can afford 3 4 5 or 6mil for a jet.
I could perhaps maybe if all the stars align afford this one.
This will be my last plane. I’m turning 65 for crying out loud.
I have no commercial missions to Complete. This plane will do everything I need euh want. Heck, Red bo does.
Jeesh guys lighten up.
Have you sat in that thing?????

Don't worry Luc, I will fly with you in your new red, vtail. I'm beginning to believe we are well on our way to another 400 page thread. The thing everyone wants to sidestep is the new aspect. Cirrus also has a great reputation for rolling out new versions/features - providing an upgrade path for those who want the shiny new thing...

How many of us drive 40 year old cars for our daily drivers? How many dream of buying a used car? For some reason we are stuck in trying to figure out which 30 to 40 year old jet would be a better buy than a new Cirrus Jet.

Good thing we all have a choice.

Ready for that first ride.....

Peace,
Don

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 17:02

Username Protected wrote:

Have you sat in that thing?????

I sat in an SF50 the other day. It was awesome. Makes my PC12 cockpit look like it was made in 1985. I'm itching for a change. I wish new jets were as cheap to buy as Mike C thinks they are....... Ahhh... if only I had some 1985 jet prices.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 17:08

And...a jet with a parachute; what's not to like?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 17:14

Username Protected wrote:

Chuck, have you sat in the Cirrus?

Yes. Nice plane, but won't do many of my missions. If I could have one and something else to do my more challenging missions would love to have one in my hangar though.

Can't stop an SF50 on glaze ice

Tower: Braking action?

Me: Don't know, didn't touch them ;-)

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Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 17:19

Username Protected wrote:

Isn't the Sf50 really $2.1 unless you want to wait until 2021? I am big fan of the snazzy new SF50 design, but a bigger fan of an established mature airframe like the Meridian.

That being said if the SF50 and Meridian 500 are both $2.0-$2.1MM I would probably go with the jet "because it looks cool"

Kevin

I think Cirrus is far more "established" than Piper.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 17:24

Username Protected wrote:

And...a jet with a parachute; what's not to like?

On that note:

And it's got more than one engine. Perfect!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 17:27

Username Protected wrote:

2 mil, 260 kts@ 38GPH

SF50 is $1.7MM and 300 knots. Also has a chute and a snazzy new design.

Honestly, between these 2 I'm buying the SF50.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 May 2018, 18:03

Username Protected wrote:

Horrible example. 1. They're out of business. 2. The jet was crap. 3. That was in 2007.

When Eclipse shipped the 50th one, they weren't out of business, just like Cirrus is shipping the 50th SF50 now.

There's no evidence Cirrus is making money on each SF50 they deliver. The current pricing could be falsely low.

If they build 500 SF50s at a loss, then that could bankrupt Cirrus as well. It would not surprise me if the SF50 really needs to be $3M each to make money.

The SF50 program nearly bankrupted Cirrus, got shut down, and only got restarted when the Chinese bought them.

Quote:

If they launched the Canada version with Garmin and all the mods they should have launched with in 2007 it would be $4MM+.

Amazing how you are already $3M off you first number.

The Canada was saddled with a design that is expensive to make in small numbers, plus they had a costly design and certification phase to pay for.

One other example: Cessna delivered ~500 Mustangs, typically priced ~$3M.

Two engines don't make an airplane necessarily more expensive. Consider:

2018 King Air C90: $3.8M

2018 TBM 910: $4.0M

The OEM cost for two PW610F engines is similar to one FJ33-5A, and two engines make the airplane simpler in many ways.

I hope Cirrus looks past their false religion of single engine and one day makes a light twin jet. Being a twin opens up true jet economy, range, speed, altitude, and safety. The falsely perceived negatives of being a twin are transfer from piston aircraft.

Mike C.