Hi,

I am working on a plan. My company has a very complex structure with aircraft from single engine helos to widebodies. The most natural thing to do, is to make it more complex by adding another type

There may be a niche marked that hasn’t been filled yet. I am trying to convince my boss to add a Citation Sovereign, G150, 900xp or similar. I assume LR60xr don’t have the range to be in the mix.As you can see from my selection, I’m not looking for new aircraft. It needs to be able to fly with full or almost full payload on a 2000nm leg with alternate almost 200nm further away. Rwy length/obstacles will not be an issue, slippery rwys may be.

Do any of you guys know:

Where can I find performance data for those aircraft types? Or are there any other aircraft types that can do the job?
Where can I find info on avg yearly downtime for 15-20 year old jets (yes, I know it depends on a lot of factors)?
Where can I find approx cost of maintenance for said types? Expected usage is 500 hrs/year.
If I do get to add an aircraft, is it possible to add an engine maintenance plan (map gold?) if the aircraft didn’t have one already?

Thanks,
Morten

Lots of variables there. It would help to know your budget.

For our G280 I reckon our hourly costs are around $4000 which includes engines, APU/airframe program costs, plus all the other operating expenses for around 400 hrs per year. Probably not in your budget, but might give you an idea.

G150s are cheap for a reason. I’ve never flown one, but the pilots I’ve spoken to don’t seem to like them. I’ve heard they are underpowered. No access to baggage from the inside and loading looks like it would be a pain. Boots instead of hot wings. Otherwise the specs seem OK for the price.

I’ve heard nothing but good things about the Challenger 300s. If you could find a good one in your budget, you could do a lot worse.

I’ve heard you can add engines to a program, but it depends on how many hours are on them and probably some other factors. I’ve always heard it’s better to buy one with the engines already on a program and it definitely adds value to the aircraft so I’m sure there’s a good reason.

As far as down time goes, it depends greatly on the aircraft. Some are definitely better than others. All the 600 series Challengers I’ve flown have been very reliable. Our G280 hasn’t stranded us yet, but we have had it less than a year. As with any of them, major scheduled maintenance takes 2-3 months of down time and I’ve heard horror stories of them spending 6 months or more if they run into issues, so getting one that isn’t due anytime soon is definitely a plus.

Mike - so 4k per hour is hangar, pilots, etc too?

If so, that doesn’t seem bad given the capability of the plane.

A Conklin and De Decker subscription would be the easiest way to compare ballpark figures for several preowned aircraft models

https://conklindedecker.jetsupport.com

My understanding is that’s everything including all of our pay and travel expenses for two pilots, but other than filing the paperwork I don’t get involved much with that end of the business. I know that the hourly costs for the engine program went up significantly compared to our Challenger 605, but fuel costs went down by a similar amount. We burn about 700-800 pph a side in cruise at .82

The G280 has proven to be a great aircraft. Climbs like a turpentine kitty, flies high, huge baggage, great avionics, and gives you most or all of the bells and whistles you get with the large bizjets. Well worth the premium over a G150.

That data is not even close to being accurate.

G200 is a sweet spot for this category.

To add some things to consider:

* Don't buy an orphan. Hawker 1000s are cheap, for a reason. Same story for Astra SPXs.

* CAPEX is part of the equation. A CE-750 is a much cheaper SMID than a CL30, but has higher OPEX, and less reliability.

* You can affect the payload capability with your BOW. China dishes, etc add weight that could be used for pax.

I hate to say this, but you may be getting in broker territory for help with your answers across multiple types. At least a broker who can connect you to some operators of each type that you can ask real questions to. Or you could search the FAA registry for types, try to identify an owner/operator(s), and see if you could get one who is willing to talk numbers with you.

I flew the CL-30/35, and it's a great plane. 6'1" cabin, seating for 9-10, really good wet & contaminated runway performance (I've flown legs like ACK-OAK, RKD-SFO, ASE-SJU, OGG-JAC). It also is very reliable (my operator had the CE-750 and the CL-30s, and the dispatch rate on the Challengers was double the CE-750s), great baggage space. It can also do really short field stuff--I've hauled 8 people out of 07FA, landed at MQI @ 3,330' (we had DAAP under Part 135).

I'm sure the G280 is also an amazing plane, and I've heard good things about the Praetors as well.

Good luck with your search.

I'd advocate for a Citation sovereign if acquisition price isn't a huge factor. Modern, well supported jet. Good efficiency over the other options.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

The Sovereign or 900XP would fit that 2,000 nm leg pretty comfortably, the G150 might be close, depending on winds and load. The LR60XR would probably be a stretch for what you’re describing.
For performance data, I’d start with the AFM or the manufacturer’s published charts, most of that stuff is floating around online or through the type clubs. Conklin & de Decker is great for ballpark maintenance costs, and a quick call to a few operators or MROs will give you a feel for downtime on 15-20-year-old jets.

And yep, you can usually buy into an engine program later, just expect an inspection and a bit of a premium.

Good luck convincing the boss, sounds like a fun addition to the lineup! ✈️

Hi,

Thank you for all the inputs.


As the client doesn’t know they need the service yet, I’ll go for cheapest option.


Excellent. If I only knew if it was due poor dispatch reliability, high maintenance cost or any other reason. Access to bags during flight is not required. Aircraft in my company are bought to fit a specific purpose, not to please pilots. I know - I fly Dash 8Q200


Any idea as to how often 2-3 months scheduled maintenance? I assume the newer, the less. Flight time or calendar?

G280 or challenger 300 - probably too expensive.


I also looked at those. They seem very cheap. I’m not worried about de-ice boots, the cost of maintenance of that can be factored in. A distant acquaintance of mine operates an ex-netjets G200, I better reach out to him. All I know about that one is, that they bought one with 13k hrs, and the client wasn’t happy about downtime.


I know. But I would like to gather as much info as possible in order to get my boss to go to a broker.


Ahh - a long wry
Flying the Dash 8, I fly in and out of 2600´ Rwys with almost full payload (off topic, I know)

Thanks. I’m still interested in more info to persuade my boss.
Morten

My understanding is that’s everything including all of our pay and travel expenses for two pilots, but other than filing the paperwork I don’t get involved much with that end of the business. I know that the hourly costs for the engine program went up significantly compared to our Challenger 605, but fuel costs went down by a similar amount. We burn about 700-800 pph a side in cruise at .82

The G280 has proven to be a great aircraft. Climbs like a turpentine kitty, flies high, huge baggage, great avionics, and gives you most or all of the bells and whistles you get with the large bizjets. Well worth the premium over a G150.

Into the 40’s in less than 15 mins.

Since this is a Beech site and given your responses - The 900XP has a zero-wind NBAA IFR range of about 2790nm with a full fuel payload of 1620-1950lbs dependent upon year and how the interior is outfitted. Acquisition is around $3.5M-$5.5M on 2008-2010 aircraft on Honeywell TSP/Gold MSP with the avionics covered by CASP. Current prices are about $1025 give or take for engines and APU and $170-$195 per flight hour for CASP and I believe CASP has an expectation of around 250 hours a year. Then you add crew, hangar, fuel and FBO coss (price them under the card programs) for xxx hours, maintenance, insurance, tips for the ramp folks, ad nauseum.

Double that for the Challenger 300 but it, is about double the acquisition cost and nearly double the operating costs. Within the Bombardier family, the Lear 60 is pretty fast but it likely would need a fuel stop when headed 2000nm to the west.

Keeping it (roughly) within the family - Citation Sovereign is also a contender with similar fixed and operating costs of the 900XP, about 500 lbs less full fuel useful load - but acquisition costs for a good used model current on a engine and avionics program are about 40% more than the 900XP and double plus for the Lear 60.

When I was younger and flying in the back with the bosses over the years, the Challenger 300 and G-IV/G-V were comfy. However, the per-hour cost on the G-IV and G-V were about 60% more than the 300 but the aircraft had different capabilities. My favorite was always the KingAir because I could sit right seat and enjoy the ride.

It would be interesting to throw it into Copilot or Chat-GPT5, Grok, or Gemini/Flash and see what each comes back with and what they have for references.

...and if the client isn't sure if they need it yet - they likely don't need it. However, adding complexity to your already busy flight operation sounds fun!

Morten I will advocate you continue using your next larger type or add another airplane whatever that is if more capacity is needed. It may be more operational cost but adding another make and model is a huge fixed cost in management, training, and pilot population to cover contingencies. That's particularly true if you do your own maintenance. Some of the types mentioned you aren't going to find local contract pilots to fill in so you will end up paying 3 or 4 pilots to be current just for backup.

A friend runs an operation with 4 Falcon 900. I don't recall which model. They like the planes and had operated the brand for 20 years. The company bought a Global for specific overseas trips. After two years they ended up switching entirely to Global for all the reasons i mentioned.