02 May 2025, 20:24 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average  Posted: 23 Dec 2011, 14:47 |
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Joined: 05/25/11
Posts: 48
Post Likes: +12
Aircraft: Piper PA46-350P
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Username Protected wrote: The tanks are not foam filled. I can see the aluminum tank when filling them.
I was told that the design does not have any fuel lines within the passenger compartment. Nothing like getting in a plane and looking over at the sight tube inside the cockpit that shows you your fuel level? From the Diamond website: "In fact, we haven't been able to find any significant fires in Diamond airplanes, which we find to be a remarkable record due in part to the airplane's design." Depends on what your definition if "significant" is.
I think significant means that if the passenger compartment remains intact post crash what is the likelihood of fire endangering those inside. As far as I know, the DA-40 has not had any post-crash fires when the passenger compartment has remained intact. That doesn't mean that the people inside did not perish from the impact forces.
The Mississippi crash completely destroyed the airframe in way that no other DA-40 crash has been reported to do. Given the NTSB report of the rather unusual maneuvering that went on for about an hour before I don't know what to think about that crash. It has generated a lot of speculation among the Diamond community.
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 23 Dec 2011, 14:56 |
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Joined: 08/03/08
Posts: 16153
Post Likes: +8866
Location: 2W5
Aircraft: A36
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Username Protected wrote: Any insight on relative production numbers to Cirrus airplanes?
FAA Registration Data (today) Diamond DA40: 713 Diamond DA20: 386 Cirrus SR20: 774 Cirrus SR22: 3148 The only two that are truly comparable are the DA40 (4 seat 180hp) and the SR20 (4 seat 200hp).
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 23 Dec 2011, 14:57 |
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Joined: 05/25/11
Posts: 48
Post Likes: +12
Aircraft: Piper PA46-350P
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Username Protected wrote: Some more digging: DA 40 uses braided stainless steel lines, not aluminum tubes. These are MUCH tougher, and being flexible, allow for more damage tolerance. Still, better than glass.  Layton, what made you chose the DA 40? I think they're very attractive from a lot of perspectives, but I suspect most Bo or Cirrus owners don't want to give up the speed. Again, my apologies to the DA 40 folks. The 20 has the aft tank. For punishment, may I suggest hours of flying around in one? I chose the DA-40 for the flying qualities and my wife thought it looked cool! Safety was also a concern. A stall is almost a non-event and it comes down in the stall slower than a Cirrus under the chute. I also suspect most Bo and Cirrus owners don't want to give up the load carrying capacity either. My DA-40 is really a two person, full fuel aircraft. 824lbs useful load which is workable, but the real problem is rear cg. It isn't terribly slow, as I plan for an easy 140kts and sometimes hit 150kts without pushing the engine hard. That speed gets us around Texas with 2 to 3 hours legs which is just fine.
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 23 Dec 2011, 15:05 |
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Joined: 12/13/07
Posts: 20381
Post Likes: +10385
Location: Seeley Lake, MT (23S)
Aircraft: 1964 Bonanza S35
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Username Protected wrote: No miracles. The fuel tank is designed for a 26 g crash, which is more than we can survive.
. The body can withstand at least 4 times that. NASCAR crashes can reach 100 G's. Top fuel dragsters do zero to 100 MPH in point 7 seconds on their way to around 330 MPH.
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 23 Dec 2011, 15:29 |
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Joined: 02/13/10
Posts: 20195
Post Likes: +24826
Location: Castle Rock, Colorado
Aircraft: Prior C310,BE33,SR22
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Username Protected wrote: No miracles. The fuel tank is designed for a 26 g crash, which is more than we can survive.
. The body can withstand at least 4 times that. NASCAR crashes can reach 100 G's. Top fuel dragsters do zero to 100 MPH in point 7 seconds on their way to around 330 MPH.
Some info on G's:
The gyro rotors in Gravity Probe B and the free-floating
proof masses in the TRIAD I navigation satellite = 0 g
A ride in the Vomit Comet ≈ 0 g
Standing on the Moon at its equator = 0.1654 g
Standing on the Earth at sea level–standard = 1 g
Saturn V moon rocket just after launch = 1.14 g
Bugatti Veyron from 0 to 100 km/h in 2.4 s = 1.55 g
Space Shuttle, maximum during launch and reentry = 3 g
High-g roller coasters[8]:340 = 3.5–6.3 g
Top Fuel drag racing world record of 4.4 s over 1/4 mile = 4.2 g
Formula One car, maximum under heavy braking = 5+ g
Luge, maximum expected at the Whistler Sliding Centre = 5.2 g
Standard, full aerobatics certified glider = +7/-5 g
Apollo 16 on reentry = 7.19 g
Typical max. turn in an aerobatic plane or fighter jet = 9–12 g
Maximum for human on a rocket sled = 46.2 g
Death or serious injury likely = > 50 g
Brief human exposure survived in crash = > 100 g
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 23 Dec 2011, 18:42 |
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Joined: 05/16/10
Posts: 216
Post Likes: +2
Location: Albuquerque, NM (KAEG)
Aircraft: TN B36
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Username Protected wrote: The other problem with the DA40 besides speed is the maintenance. Every 5 years or 1000 hours you have to spend $15k doing maint. to keep it airworthy. The best thing I ever did was sell mine for a v-tail Hmmm. The only special maintenance item that I'm aware of is replacing the rudder cables. If you spent $15k on that then you were seriously overcharged.
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 23 Dec 2011, 23:29 |
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Joined: 08/03/08
Posts: 16153
Post Likes: +8866
Location: 2W5
Aircraft: A36
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Username Protected wrote: The other problem with the DA40 besides speed is the maintenance. Every 5 years or 1000 hours you have to spend $15k doing maint. to keep it airworthy. The best thing I ever did was sell mine for a v-tail Hmmm. The only special maintenance item that I'm aware of is replacing the rudder cables. If you spent $15k on that then you were seriously overcharged.
The rudder cable are the only mandatory time-limited airframe item.
There is a comprehensive 1000hr inspection recommended by the manufacturer. Unfortunately the sevice centers take that as license to engage in some serious bill-padding and some owners with aircraft tied down outside have found a lot of hardware that needed replacing.
That 1000hr inspection is like a phase-check on turbine planes except that they are not mandatory under part 91. The reason it exists has something to do with non-US airworthiness practices. If the Bonanza was certified new today it would have an airframe life and those phase inspections.
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 24 Dec 2011, 00:01 |
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Joined: 04/22/10
Posts: 1239
Post Likes: +2814
Location: Port Moresby and sometimes Brisbane
Aircraft: A36 Bonanza
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Quote: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Followed by two pages on DA40s 
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Chuck Perry
A36 VH-EZU
B737-800NG
Redcliffe
QLd, Australia
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 24 Dec 2011, 12:42 |
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Joined: 12/19/08
Posts: 560
Post Likes: +22
Location: CYXH - Medicine Hat, AB
Aircraft: DA42
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Username Protected wrote: I bet it isn't required. Only two ways to make it required. By AD and by an FAA approved Airworthiness Limitation Section of the maintenance manual or instructions for continued airworthiness. A manufacturer cannot make you do anything unless the FAA agrees and makes it law. As Scott posted Diamond has a Section 4 in there maintenance manual which is "required for airworthiness", they also have Section 5 items which are suggested. When I was flying the DA40 and DA42 there were always shops that made it sound like all section 5 stuff was required but as per Diamond it was not. Most of it I did anyway's but some didn't make sense for my missions. The rudder cables are Section 4 and around a $5,000 touch if I recall. All there manuals are online if anyone is interested.
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Doug Thompson
CPL, ME, IR
CYXH - Medicine Hat, AB
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Post subject: Re: Aviation Consumer: Cirrus Safety Record Just Average Posted: 24 Dec 2011, 15:36 |
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Joined: 08/03/08
Posts: 16153
Post Likes: +8866
Location: 2W5
Aircraft: A36
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Username Protected wrote: I bet it isn't required. Only two ways to make it required. By AD and by an FAA approved Airworthiness Limitation Section of the maintenance manual or instructions for continued airworthiness. A manufacturer cannot make you do anything unless the FAA agrees and makes it law. As Scott posted Diamond has a Section 4 in there maintenance manual which is "required for airworthiness",
On a Lycoming powered plane, the following items are listed as required replacements in section 4:
Emergency battery (for the G1000) 2years
Rudder cables: 3000hrs or 5 years
Fuel hoses behind FW: on condition for VFR, 2000hr/12years for NVFR/IFR
Fuel hoses FWF: on condition for VFR 2000/12 for NVFR/IFR
Oil hoses: on condition for VFR 2000/12 for NVFR/IFR
The phase-inspection shedule in chapter 5 may be a good idea to perform, but it is as pointed out not mandatory. Replacing fuel lines and oil hoses after 2000hrs or 12 years is probably not a bad idea.
What a lot of people have an issue with is the 5 year time limit on the rudder cables. They are stainless, in a privately flown plane that maybe does 100hrs a year and does not see any trainer use, I just can't see a scenario where the time alone should be an isue with this part (outside of some embrittlement or crevice corrosion issues that have cropped up with some types of braided stainless designs). Pulling out perfectly good cables and replacing them just because it is written on a piece of paper just sounds like an invitation for maintenance induced failure.
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