Do you buy chance have a tail number for a Piaggio for a FltPlan.com profile? Would love to add it in.

Thanks!

Chip-

Do you buy chance have a tail number for a Piaggio for a FltPlan.com profile? Would love to add it in.

Thanks!

Chip-

The Turbo Commander and the Conquest 441 are different because their production runs ended prematurely because of the situation back in the early 1980's.

So, let's take the Mustang.

472 aircraft in the Mustang fleet.
32 have sold in the last six months.

214 aircraft in the Avanti fleet.
5 have sold in the last six months.

The Mustang has no known unique maintenance issues other than Pratt is a pain to deal with HSI / overhauls.

I have no interest in marginalizing the Piaggio, and I agree that the Mustang is a niche market, but with a fleet less than half the size, the Piaggio is about as niche as it gets.

Second this.

Before buying my Piaggio, I did a ton of due diligence on the plane and the company. I used to work in private equity, including at Blackstone, so this is a skill I have.

What I concluded is that the company has horrible marketing, made bad go-to-market decisions (ie focusing production on AvantAir as a major purchaser). and then had some bad luck -- the fraudulent management of AvantAir, whose planes were not legally maintained, and that created an undeserved bad maintenance reputation for the entire airframe.

In addition, the plane is unusual. It's got the size and features of a mid-sized jet, the performance of a light jet, but has props. It also happens to be quieter, more fuel efficient, and has a better safety track record than that any of those. This unusual feature set, combined with its unusual appearance, requires excellent marketing, which it doesn't have.

I did speak to someone whose PE Firm almost ended up owning the company, and he made it clear to me that if he bought the company, invested in service and some marketing, upgraded the avionics, made some easy changes that lowered COGS, and raised prices ~15%, they could tells 60+ planes overnight -- basically upon closing the puurhase -- and have a great business, which I believe.

Let's see what Baykar does with the company. I'm optimistic.

What do you know of Baykar? never heard of them

2 different Chips FWIW.

Chip-

Founded in 1984, they are a hugely successful defense Aerospace company. They are very profitable makers of large drones. The two founders have a combined estimated net worth of about US$3.5 billion. No small feat to make money like that in aviation.

As you may be aware, drones are a big business, esp in Europe, these days. The acquisition of Piaggio is their foray into commercial aviation. (Though Piaggio was in development of drones, based on the Avanti platform, as well.)

It's an interesting success story, because a lot of their parts suppliers over time discontinued sales to them because they didn't support the use of their products in a military context. This caused Baykar to vertically integrate into a much larger percentage of the value chain, sort of similar to what US export controls against Huawei are doing. Necessity if the mother of invention!

It doesn't have a better safety record than the Mustang. You can't look at accidents vs number of years the airplane has been around, you have to look at number of airframes and hours flown.

A Piaggio w native Garmin, fadec and autoland would rapidly become one of the most popular new planes for sale.

I have zero doubt the new owners will do that. It will take a while but they will eventually get larger fleet and the plane will become more common.

Textron will regret killing the Premier (the only other single pilot thing w a reasonable sized cabin). CJ lineup is fine but they are loud and cramped.

Given this threads topic, I don’t think it’s a direct replacement for a PC12. They each have their place in the new plane ecosystem. I have loaded bikes in both. If I had to do that often, not go very far and land on sub 3k runways, pc12 all the way! For pretty much anything else, Piaggio

One thing that stands out from the thread on your aviation journey in plane talk is that pretty much everyone loved every plane they have ever had. They are all rad IMO. The changes and upgrades seem more about fitting missions and financial circumstances of the moment more than anything else.

That is great!

This is really the crux of it.

I can't imagine anyone thinking "should I buy a Piaggio or a Pilatus?"

Two totally different aircraft, two totally different buyers.

That might depend upon the individual. I think most owner pilots really don't have a mission and then search for the perfect aircraft for that mission. If they did, often they would be disappointed, as often missions change as soon as you get the plane. (I have heard it called mission creep). They actually find an aircraft that is the most versatile that they can afford, justify it profusely, and then optimize their mission(s) for the aircraft that they put in their hangar, and then try to convince everyone else it is the perfect plane. Well it usually is for them, or they would get something else.

Non-pilot owners, probably look more at mission, because they don't particularly enjoy flying, it is just a tool, so getting there at some combination of cheapest, fastest and most comfortable is the goal. So an owner pilot may very well, when looking, think do I want an Epic, an M700, a Piaggio, a Mustang, an SF50, a Baron or a PC12. No matter what, they are going to fly on average as per the data, 2-3 souls, less than 300 nm, and then throw in some fun trips that challenge the the aircraft's capability.

Unless you can afford a fleet, an owner pilot is just going to get into the most plane he/she can afford that scratches the itch, and serves a good part of the missions well.

That might depend upon the individual. I think most owner pilots really don't have a mission and then search for the perfect aircraft for that mission. If they did, often they would be disappointed, as often missions change as soon as you get the plane. (I have heard it called mission creep). They actually find an aircraft that is the most versatile that they can afford, justify it profusely, and then optimize their mission(s) for the aircraft that they put in their hangar, and then try to convince everyone else it is the perfect plane. Well it usually is for them, or they would get something else.

Non-pilot owners, probably look more at mission, because they don't particularly enjoy flying, it is just a tool, so getting there at some combination of cheapest, fastest and most comfortable is the goal. So an owner pilot may very well, when looking, think do I want an Epic, an M700, a Piaggio, a Mustang, an SF50, a Baron or a PC12. No matter what, they are going to fly on average as per the data, 2-3 souls, less than 300 nm, and then throw in some fun trips that challenge the the aircraft's capability.

Unless you can afford a fleet, an owner pilot is just going to get into the most plane he/she can afford that scratches the itch, and serves a good part of the missions well.

I see why you might think that, but my search included both. In sum:
- I flew a TBM 900, but it became too small as the family grew
- I thought "I need a bigger plane and I fly a SETP" -> "Pilatus"
- Then I flew the Pilatus, and determined it handled like a minivan. Luckily, my wife said, "you fly because you love it; fly a plane you enjoy flying." I think a lot of people might just have stopped there. Instead, I did the work to get a multi and expanded my search.
- Then I flew a Phenom 300 for 50 hours. More fun to fly, but the cabin was too cramped for 2 toddlers, 2 dogs, and either me (we with safety pilot) or nanny
- Then, the gazillion hours of research into Piaggios, which led me to conclude the low acquisition price wasn't a sign I was "missing something," and just a mis-pricing. So I got a Piaggio, ungraded the hell out of the avionics and interior, and couldn't be happier.

If I lived 15 minutes from a grass strip and 1h30m from a real airport, I would pay basically any amount for a Pilatus though. That's just not my scenario.