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23 Oct 2025, 09:28 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2025, 23:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
My post was obviously not worded clearly. If you were flying 300kts at 96% and 650C you could increase RPM and temperature will drop because more air is being supplied by the compressor. Power will also drop because more energy is now being consumed by the compressor. If you add enough fuel to regain your 300kts your temp will be significantly less than 650C, probably 630C. So, to go 300kts you have a choice 96% 650C or 100% 630C.

Any turbine engine will be more “efficient “ (BSFC) as the EGT goes up. Your TPE331 will be VERY “efficient “ at 670C for the few seconds before it grenades. Efficiency and longevity are at odds with each other

My first MU2 was an N model and I only had it a year before Frank Borman convinced me to get a Marquise and I don’t recall the details of -6 engine operation. I never had a -10 converted airplane . My understanding is that that the SRL system was introduced to allow the temperature sensors to be installed in cooler conditions which extended their life. An operating ITT/EGT gauge for each engine is required for any flight so failed ITT sensors were a big deal. The same thing could have been accomplished by giving the pilot a table showing what temperatures could be used under which conditions. The SRL system reduces the pilots workload allowing automatic starting and a single temperature redline to be used under all conditions.

As you stated, the engine will go between HSI at 100% RPM and 100% ITT/EGT. However there is no room for operator error and the HSI might be more expensive. In my Solitaire, I run 96% and 640C. If find the noise less obnoxious, the speed adequate and there is some room for error or creep on the EGT. Periodically, I will run 96% 650C and verify that I’m getting book performance numbers.

Helmuth sometimes didn’t go into detail on whether he was referring to measured EGT, the “massaged” EGT on an SRL equipped aircraft, or the ITT those numbers actually represented. Obviously, the first stage turbine blades only care about the temperature they are being exposed to, not the temperature somewhere else. I don’t think all pilots understand how this all works.

My prior MU2 was a Marquise. Pre RVSM, I would fly long legs at FL290 which would require 100% 650C when heavy if the temp was ISA +10C or higher. The Marquise is a pig compared to the Solitaire. Same wing, same engines and 1000lb weight difference!


I don’t know of any performance charts where 100% is available, maybe the mits? Do they offer 100% charts?


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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2025, 08:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
FWIW, I've operated 2 MU-2 -10 conversions (an M and a G). They both had SRL systems and 650C redlines.

Really? Mike C.

Yup, really. The current owner of the G is on BT often.

The -10 M was indeed a unique bird from what I know. It was different from the other M I flew, which was basically stock IIRC

Great airplanes!

George
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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2025, 08:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Yup, really. The current owner of the G is on BT often.

Foreign registered?

There are zero G models (aka MU-2B-30) on US registry.

As I understand it, the -10 conversion STC never covered the G models, same with the F models, no known -10 conversion for them as well.

There is a mod to install -6 compressor section on the -1 engines of the F/G models, but that's not a -10 conversion by any means.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2025, 11:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
My post was obviously not worded clearly. If you were flying 300kts at 96% and 650C you could increase RPM and temperature will drop because more air is being supplied by the compressor. Power will also drop because more energy is now being consumed by the compressor. If you add enough fuel to regain your 300kts your temp will be significantly less than 650C, probably 630C. So, to go 300kts you have a choice 96% 650C or 100% 630C.

Any turbine engine will be more “efficient “ (BSFC) as the EGT goes up. Your TPE331 will be VERY “efficient “ at 670C for the few seconds before it grenades. Efficiency and longevity are at odds with each other

My first MU2 was an N model and I only had it a year before Frank Borman convinced me to get a Marquise and I don’t recall the details of -6 engine operation. I never had a -10 converted airplane . My understanding is that that the SRL system was introduced to allow the temperature sensors to be installed in cooler conditions which extended their life. An operating ITT/EGT gauge for each engine is required for any flight so failed ITT sensors were a big deal. The same thing could have been accomplished by giving the pilot a table showing what temperatures could be used under which conditions. The SRL system reduces the pilots workload allowing automatic starting and a single temperature redline to be used under all conditions.

As you stated, the engine will go between HSI at 100% RPM and 100% ITT/EGT. However there is no room for operator error and the HSI might be more expensive. In my Solitaire, I run 96% and 640C. If find the noise less obnoxious, the speed adequate and there is some room for error or creep on the EGT. Periodically, I will run 96% 650C and verify that I’m getting book performance numbers.

Helmuth sometimes didn’t go into detail on whether he was referring to measured EGT, the “massaged” EGT on an SRL equipped aircraft, or the ITT those numbers actually represented. Obviously, the first stage turbine blades only care about the temperature they are being exposed to, not the temperature somewhere else. I don’t think all pilots understand how this all works.

My prior MU2 was a Marquise. Pre RVSM, I would fly long legs at FL290 which would require 100% 650C when heavy if the temp was ISA +10C or higher. The Marquise is a pig compared to the Solitaire. Same wing, same engines and 1000lb weight difference!


I don’t know of any performance charts where 100% is available, maybe the mits? Do they offer 100% charts?


Of course the climb charts are at 100%. Cruise charts are 96% 650C

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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2025, 23:49 
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Regarding limiters: my -10 converted K model has the EGT system all -10 planes have but (since it is converted) no SRL. Like Mike C, I was under the impression that SRL was only seen in -10 from the factory, but I could certainly be wrong on that. While the temp limiting system was used on internal ITT sensors (which are gone on my plane as they got replaced with EGT sensors in the exhaust) torque limiters are still available. Mine function very well and have been maintenance free for the last 1700 hours of operation. I use them all the time.
These MU-2 aircraft have had a lot of mods and some seem to be almost unique. Perhaps that’s how someone ended up with an SRL on a converted -10? For example, my -10 K has twin glass electrically heated windshields and the alcohol system is gone. As far as I know, most K’s and M’s have either two acrylic windshields or one electric glass and copilot’s side is acrylic. I’ve been told that I could upgrade my K with higher pressurization differential and higher max weight, it just takes the green enzyme and plenty of down time (neither of which I’m ready to sacrifice for those things).

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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2025, 02:37 
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Username Protected wrote:

Of course the climb charts are at 100%. Cruise charts are 96% 650C


Ok. I haven’t flown anything that promotes or outlines 100% other than takeoff. I believe the cruise charts are 96% and 98% across most 331 planes and they will show negligible difference in speed and FF at a given (usually max) EGT so it comes down to pilot technique and preference. At that point, lower rpm offers exponentially less elongation force on the blades as far as I can tell. I’ve found 96-97% to be the sweet spot for climb, cruise and descent. Unfortunately I don’t believe you can get the same speed out of the plane at 20 degrees less ITT or EGT by running higher RPM. I just haven’t observed that in flight or by chart. Just my experience but we can all compare the charts for our particular application.


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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2025, 17:12 
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Bringing the popcorn and adding in a datapoint or two:

On an SRL -60 MU2, I'll see a 40-50º temp swing in EGT with the same FF at 100% vs 96% RPM.

If keeping the EGT set to 650º, I'll see a 30-40 pph reduction and typically 15-20 knots

I realize that drag curve of the wing plays into this, and an MU2 (especially the long body) hangs off the wing pretty hard.

In a -1 plane I fly, that 40-50º delta seems smaller. More like 30º

Put me in the camp of manually setting power rather than relying on SRL computers. Wish I didn't have them. I also occasionally wish I had the Commander's wing to fly happier into the high 20s, but it's not part of my routine.

With respect to the time exposure during over-temp excursions: how do the test cell temp margin numbers come into play ?


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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2025, 00:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
….

With respect to the time exposure during over-temp excursions: how do the test cell temp margin numbers come into play ?


I think margin is normally saved for power recovery to compensate for wear and tear and that may include anything that sapps power but will still spin round and round.

I did over 2,100nm today in an unfamiliar -10T plane and took a lot of photos at various settings. However, the inherited squawks included lack of proper pressurization so not sure I learned anything new and/or am a bit fatigued from high cab alt. No doubt there are all kinds of factors with regard to number of blades, airframe, wing aspect ratio, slow vs fast turn, etc, but I can confirm that 100% at max temp -20 degrees made the plane go faster today at FL190!

I sure wish there was a Helmuth type seminar available to us today to answer and provide current data, lessons learned, and recommendations. Maybe there is? And we should lobby for a meeting?


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 Post subject: Re: Question re TPE engine temp.
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2025, 00:40 
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I’m 100% all for that

There’s always someone new stepping into the plane. It’d benefit the fleet as a whole to keep the engines in good shape.

Slightly unrelated: Bruce, is borescoping 331s common for you? It’s a piece of cake on a Pt6 but I got some pushback years ago with 331s. May have been my naivity though.


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