Oh I have thumbed through previous posts and figured I'd bring up my own topic. Be kind if there is an exact thread I missed on this topic.

So as the topic line suggests:
- we are a management company primarily in Cirrus, Meridian, TBM, Pilatus, Cessna 441, KingAir
- just took delivery of a 2001 CJ1 - Collins ProLine 3 tube - GTN 650/750 upgrade - engines on TAP elite - just had the precoolers replaced
- the question is (round numbers below) - best option for us?
- $75/hr for CASP covering Collins components including labor and rental equipment
vs
- $270/hr for pro parts covering pretty much all parts?
vs
- self insuring and rolling the dice?

Aircraft will likely fly 300 hours/yr. I have talked to many on the 525s and seems about 50% self insure (engine programs) - 25% CASP - 25% Pro Parts

Anyhow, open to any friendly feedback.

Thank you kindly in advance.

Coy,

Are you a member of Citation Jet Pilots? I think you would get the most feedback on that forum regarding programs. It’s been debated on BT, but not by as many with direct experience.

I’m on ProParts and PowerAdvantage+ with my Mustang. For a CJ1, the decisions aren’t quite as easy.

If you’re just managaing the airplane, less headaches will occur if you’re on the programs. If the owner has deep pockets and writing a check for $50k is a sneeze for him, then self insure for the parts.

Our accountants would rather see consistent cost, so they like smartparts. Though the owner just sneezed a check for $14 million for a new jet.

I hope that helps!

Doing 300 hrs a year I think it depends on where you are having it serviced at. If its at the service center you might be better off on all engine and parts programs. If you are doing the service at a small local shop I would definitely be on the engine program only and take care of the parts as they are needed.

Do you have the ADSB in yet I as I have heard its pretty pricing for the CJ1.

Gary

All great advice - and along my thought process - thank you kindly

Maintenance will be with our local 500/525 guru.

ADS-B was just done pretty reasonably - it has the GTN650/750with the GTX transponders so the upgrade was pretty minimal - after the $100k for the 650/750

Does your local maintenance shop have a good parts guy who knows how to source parts?

What maintenance turnaround are you expecting? Can you wait while a part is sent out for OH/repair at 20% of the cost of an exchange part?

Do you understand the different scenarios with Proparts and under which scenarios you come out ahead and which ones Cessna wins?

With Proparts you are being charged retail prices for new or exchange parts. Your local parts guy can source parts at the same price or less. What markup over wholesale does your parts guy charge you?

Collins repairs are pricey if you want quick turnaround with exchange components. Your most likely failure is a PFD/MFD panel. It is usually a power supply problem in the panel. An exchange panel can cost $15K while Duncan can repair it for a few AMU.

If you can manage your parts supply chain you can save over the long term significantly over the programs. The programs give predictable costs to the owner. But if you go on Proparts understand what happens if you sell the plane and have a negative PP balance.

Join Citation Jet Pilots. The forum and library will be worth it.

There's no viable option other than being on the Williams engine program. It will cost more in the long run to be off program. The Williams mafia has all the power and they have priced off program engine maintenance to make sure the programs are cheaper.

I've never understood ProParts given you have to pay for everything, for the most part, in the end, and all of it comes at high list prices. ProParts is a drug that encourages a lot of part swapping in maintenance and drives up your costs.

The Collins question is harder to measure and may be worth it. All depends on the failure rate and the repair costs.

For a plane that flies 300 hours/year, you are likely to need FEWER parts/repairs per hour than most owner/operators, so you are more likely to lose on programs than others. However, for a plane that flies that much, extended downtime could be a major revenue/cost factor.

Remember that no program is designed to lose money for the program vendor.

So, in short, Williams TAP and I'd go bare on everything else.

All of the advice above is from study and reading the views of others, not from actual experience.

Mike C.

Mike is, based on my experience, correct. If you are not on Williams’ engine program, you will be. They will see to it. As for ProParts, I have it on the Ultra to manage the risk on the Primus 1000 screens. Other than that, you can pay list price + anywhere:). I very actively monitor parts purchases. There are times that I don’t Use ProParts but buy elsewhere because it’s so much cheaper. Very few repair techs understand ProParts. They think it is Carte Blanche to just order parts.


Robert

From what I’ve been able to figure out this is the key. I’m on pro-parts and I feel at the moment it is not worth it. I sway between not renewing next year and keeping it. My recent Doc 10 had about 50k worth of parts added to my balance. I’m not convinced they were all required but it’s easy for the maintenance shops just swap parts out.

As Allen says you need someone with a bunch of good contacts and sources. This is a key issue for me in Australia.

I wish CJP would create a database but maybe with Textron being a great support of the organisation that won’t happen.

Andrew

I'm not aware of any support, financial or otherwise, that Textron gives to CJP.

Mike C.

I'm not aware of any support, financial or otherwise, that Textron gives to CJP.

Mike C.

Mike come to a CJP conference, this year October at San Antionio. You will see!

I’m not in any way bashing Textron or CJP BTW.

Andrew

What Allen said!

We have two clients in CJ1's... one on ProParts one off... both on TAP of course.

The Doc likes predictability and zero surprises so ProParts works for him. I'm not personally a fan... I like my money in my bank... Textron has enough of their own!