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20 May 2022, 19:26 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 14:39 
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Joined: 05/01/11
Posts: 1931
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Aircraft: F8L Falco
If I want to use a broker to sell my light twin, what should I expect to pay them? I expect the broker to look at the airplane, review the logs and compare the airplane they see with the respective logbooks. I also expect the broker to be knowledgable enough about my airplane to know what ADs they should be looking for and how to recognize their compliance by a simple visual inspection, if appropriate.

How are brokers fees generally determined?

George

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 15:07 
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Joined: 05/17/10
Posts: 2774
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Location: canuck
Aircraft: x23mouse
I had a look recently, found lots of websites that provided plenty of info to look over first, to then decide who to call & go from there.

From what i saw, rates, what they do & how they go about it, including their expectations, is all over the map.

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 15:44 
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Joined: 12/29/14
Posts: 7465
Post Likes: +4351
Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
When I was looking into selling, I was told 10%. Alas, a pill I am unable to swallow. I probably would have let them sell it it at 5% though. But 10% is a bit greedy in my opinion for a bit of paperwork and a few phone calls.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 16:13 
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Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 13020
Post Likes: +7433
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
Somewhat depends on the type. A 182 they will do for 5-8% because it’s an easy sell. A 414 could be 10-15%…

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 16:52 
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Joined: 07/01/11
Posts: 142
Post Likes: +77
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Aircraft: C-182, C414A, B-55
The fee is negotiable. What concerns me is the possibility of the broker working on both sides of the fence. I'd want a broker with a reputation for doing a good job. I'd think less of the % fee as an end-all, be-all. I would want a list of references, time in business, and how many sales (verifiable) like yours the broker has handled in the last 3-5 years. Currently, this is a seller's market depending on make and model, but even less desirable aircraft have seen unprecedented sales prices. Talk to several potential brokers, narrow them down and compare offers. If the broker's pitch to you for your business is terrible, I'd be worried.

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Trae Welch
C-182, C-414A, & B-55

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 17:23 
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Joined: 03/21/17
Posts: 656
Post Likes: +512
Company: Santoni Properties, LLC
Location: O41
Aircraft: V35B, G36, PC-12
I used brokers when I’ve purchased planes, and they saved me more money than I paid them.

I used brokers when I sold planes and they got me more than I was expecting.

In each case, I was money ahead having used their services, after I accounted for the fees I paid. That doesn’t even count the aggravation they saved by handling all the tire kickers and low ballers.

Based on my experience, I’d highly recommend Bruce Watts in Woodland, CA and Neal Schwartz. Both great guys, honest and transparent.

I met Randy Africano when a client purchased a plane, and I’d not hesitate to use him as well, but I think his business model is different and he doesn’t market planes other than to his buying clients. I could be wrong about that.


Last edited on 19 Dec 2021, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 18:41 
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Joined: 08/14/13
Posts: 4969
Post Likes: +3497
Aircraft: C90B Nxi
+1 for Neal Schwartz

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 18:59 
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Joined: 01/19/16
Posts: 2191
Post Likes: +2906
Location: 13FA Earle Airpark FL/0A7 Hville NC
Aircraft: E33/152A/OV10/23-180
I broker part time only on certain models that I have background knowledge of. If it is an aircraft model that I am not familiar with I won’t represent it.

I charge 6% with an additional up front $500. plus travel expenses for taking pictures and writing the web based ad. Ad will have all logs and records linked and many detailed pics with captions. I put a lot of research and info in it and link it from TAP, Barnstormers, eBay etc. I provide owner with comparable sales and field all of the inquiries.

Here is an example of one of the ads that I created with links to others at the bottom of the ad.

https://motoplaneparts.com/piper/


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 20:15 
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Joined: 05/23/21
Posts: 62
Post Likes: +23
Aircraft: A36, C172M
I do a lot of prebuys, delivering, etc. Bought or sold a handful myself. I’ve assisted the sale and purchase of aircraft for customers. Really enjoy it! And please correct me if I’m wrong, but there’s no official certification for a “aircraft broker”. There’s a number of unofficial organizations with official sounding titles, but nothing official in the way of licensing or experience requirements. Same is true with aircraft appraisers. I know one popular broker who was chosen by his bank to handle their aircraft broker services simply because he was interested in learning to fly! If you’re looking for a broker for maintenance knowledge it’s not going to be a common find. Some are amazing in this capacity I’m told, but as an A&P, I’ve not been even remotely impressed with the average brokers knowledge of aircraft condition assessments or quality. I’d prefer to hire an A&P mechanic/commercial pilot type (for a much smaller fee) to provide assistance. Especially for purchasing.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2021, 20:39 
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Joined: 05/17/10
Posts: 2774
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Location: canuck
Aircraft: x23mouse
related article
https://www.flyingmag.com/why-hire-brok ... -airplane/

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2021, 00:18 
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Joined: 09/12/11
Posts: 3051
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Company: RPM Aircraft Service
Location: Gaithersburg MD KGAI
Aircraft: Mooney 201, A320
In addition to the lack of certifying standards, there's also lack of ethical code. They can say whatever they want to I just call it normal sales puffery. And some brokers will do a back to back transition where they will charge the seller to sell his airplane and tell him he's getting one price, meanwhile, they close on it with the buyer for a higher sales price, and keep the difference. So they're getting paid twice and perhaps even three times.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2021, 01:11 
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Joined: 05/23/21
Posts: 62
Post Likes: +23
Aircraft: A36, C172M
Wow, didn’t realize they could keep the split. Sleazy SOBs! Had a broker try to purchase from a “by owner” sale once. The owner, an older fella who lost his medical, refused to sell to any brokers, Period. The broker assured the owner that he wasn’t a broker and would be paying himself for a personal airplane. When the paperwork began processing it became obvious to the owner that the broker was using some remote buyers funds to acquire the airplane to transfer into a secondary sale. Got caught red handed. Seller refused to sell to a con artist. Love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2021, 12:40 
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Joined: 02/28/13
Posts: 377
Post Likes: +66
Location: Spruce Creek, FL & Calgary
Aircraft: Lancair/TBM700
I "assist" selling for my LancairTalk members that I know and for the airplanes I know. I also help "brokers" I know who do a good job at representing the brand name. I'll help them promote good Lancairs on my website for a few cups of coffee in total. Good brokers leave a good impression in the marketplace.

It is not an easy job to do good work. You have to answer a million calls, texts, emails, place ads, handle clients wondering why the plane hasn't sold, identify scammers, text-only buyers, competitor scams, fraud, waste-of-timers, newbies and more.

Typically, I've found it takes 4-8 months but we price on the high end because I think an owner's value is there while other brokers need to churn to get the sale and often price where they know a buyer will come in. I try to look for the 1-in-50 who identify with the value, the care and maintenance and longevity of composite airframes (they don't cycle out, fatigue or corrode).

I charge less than a typical broker but I also do it for fun and as a service with my website, plus ad expenses and any travel to assist. For instance, I took an engine to a shop for test runs to prove horsepower then drove it back to the shop and increased the price of the airframe by $50,000 and it sold. I spent $1800 for the effort and the owner covered the shop bill.

In my experience owners are not the ideal broker for their own airplanes. They tend to get overwhelmed by a few aggressive, skilled flippers who will devalue, buy and then flip at the real price. There is value insulating both sides with a broker between. Often one side or the other has strong opinions that can easily derail an otherwise workable transaction and often the seller gets fatigue answering the same calls over and over. In my experience I found brokers to be worth their fees but I've kicked a few off my site who don't do a good job. Some have been sloppy and not ensuring all the paperwork, build logs, MMs, schematics and other information is available for novice buyers. That's when things get costly as the buyer now is scrambling to find stuff that should have been properly handled in the transaction and the broker is paid and gone.

In contrast to many brokers who let everyone and their grandmother visit an airplane to kick tires and take joy rides, I do not let anyone near the airplane without a deposit and signed agreement. I feel that my job is not to waste an owner's time unless someone has skin in the game and is truly thinking this airplane is the right one. My job is to convince them and show them why. The owner is putting up a big investment to view and possibly test fly and the prospective buyer also needs to have some value at stake and show credibility by taking time to agree to the basic terms of sale and put up a deposit with a reputable escrow agent. All my stuff is through Aerotitle. I handle all the agreements also.

A good broker or sales helper should have a checklist of things to ask a buyer that answers 90% of what is needed before even thinking of buying a specific airplane. Anyone who simply sends a client to look at an airplane isn't doing a sales job. That is a phone answering service. People who are good at selling don't negotiate fees, they don't have to. They are too busy. Talk is cheap too. Grab the broker's last 5 clients, verify the FAA database for the transactions (note FAA is 12 weeks behind) and call them up for the review.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021, 17:42 
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Joined: 10/16/19
Posts: 30
Post Likes: +11
Location: Puyallup, WA KPLU
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
The only experience I’ve had with a broker was when I purchased my A36 last year. I used Neal Schwartz as a buyers rep and can’t say enough good things about him. He was transparent and took the time to explain what to look for and what to walk away from when it comes to Bonanzas. He did most, if not all, the legwork of the transaction and made the process as easy as possible. I wouldn’t hesitate to call him next time I buy/sell an aircraft.


Last edited on 22 Dec 2021, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021, 18:00 
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Joined: 07/14/11
Posts: 480
Post Likes: +534
Aircraft: Bonanza V35
Just bought a boat. Broker charged seller 13% on a $235k purchase price. I think he sold the boat $30k too cheap to start with. Cost the seller $60k to let a broker sell it in my opinion. Unless you have absolutely no time to talk to buyers needing a broker for anything right now does not make sense to me. Houses, boats, cars, planes that are priced right sell within days, if not hours.


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