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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 05:51 
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Sadly, another COVID thread (Death Rate Dropping) went off the rails last night.....not kind or up building at all.

Jeff and Jeff, I admire you both for trying to keep BT consistent with your vision for this place. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 06:59 
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I applaud your ideals and direction, and think you maintain a great website. I just happened on this topic by accident, glad I read it. In general, I think most successful pilots want to follow the “rules”. If there are to be major changes to the terms of service or their enforcement, I know I would’ve liked to have an email letting me know there was a new, kinder and gentler BT world, so as not to inadvertently penetrate “Class BT webspace”, especially by some snarky comment I might think and make. IDK the logistics of sending an email to 60,000 people, but the CBD oil spammers sure seemed to have it figured out.


I agree with Clinton. Sending this renewed stance out as a message could be beneficial as I also happened upon this thread by accident.

I am in the camp of giving a warning before suspension as sometimes folks do type before they think at times. I also don't like too much censure but we can certainly do without the personal attacks that happen at times.

This is the best forums I have ever joined. Keep up the great work.

-Steve


I am pretty sure the parties in question have received multiple warnings over multiple years.

Warnings don’t mean anything if there is no followup.

Taking this action will make warnings considerably more effective, I suspect.
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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 08:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sadly, another COVID thread (Death Rate Dropping) went off the rails last night.....not kind or up building at all.

Jeff and Jeff, I admire you both for trying to keep BT consistent with your vision for this place. Thank you.

It appears to be back this morning.

Was some filtering done and then the thread reinstated, was it down due to a temporary glitch, or was it reported down by mistake?

If the Jeffs went to the trouble to filter objectionable material and then reinstate the thread, that's going the N'th mile.

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 08:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sadly, another COVID thread (Death Rate Dropping) went off the rails last night.....not kind or up building at all.

Jeff and Jeff, I admire you both for trying to keep BT consistent with your vision for this place. Thank you.

It appears to be back this morning.

Was some filtering done and then the thread reinstated, was it down due to a temporary glitch, or was it reported down by mistake?

If the Jeffs went to the trouble to filter objectionable material and then reinstate the thread, that's going the N'th mile.


The “offending” material is still there on pages 141-142 of that thread. Doesn’t bother me but is probably outside the ToS.

It’s a fine line to walk on some of this stuff. There are political implications to everything today and tempers are short with the current situation.

Makes me glad for this place as a distraction.

Thank you to the Jeffs for everything you’ve built here.

By the way the discussion here at its worst isn’t 1/1000th the vitriol of the typical thread in my Facebook feed so we’re still doing alright.

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 08:39 
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Interestingly, that thread appeared for me when I clicked on view your posts, I can’t remember what I wrote or even when, but now it doesn’t, does that mean that one of my posts was deemed inappropriate and needed to be removed? If so, I would like to know so I could police myself and learn from the questionable post.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 08:56 
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Rodrigo makes an interesting point. It would be cool to get notified which of your posts were deemed inappropriate. Too much work, probably. Instagram does all of that automatically, but my understanding is that their operating budget is somewhat higher than BT’s.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 10:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
The “offending” material is still there on pages 141-142 of that thread. Doesn’t bother me but is probably outside the ToS.


The accounts involved in that discussion are all still active. The offending material must have been worse and deleted.

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 10:11 
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Joined: 03/01/09
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Jeff and Jeff - BT changed my view of aviation when I joined in 2009, and it is one of the main reasons I bought a Bonanza in May 2010. I thought "if this is the kind of folks that fly these planes, I'd like to be part of that." I live in Knoxville and met Max Grogan through BT, which led to my first Bo ride, and then buying one myself.

I'm in the camp of supporting whatever you think is best because you built this place, and in the end, it is yours to do with as you please. Nobody is "too big to fail" if they cannot follow the rules you establish. My 2 cents.


Last edited on 02 Apr 2020, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 11:23 
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I don’t know what it’s worth as I’m one of the “babies” of BeechTalk (self-proclaimed), and most of the meaningful stuff has already been said, but I for one have been very happy with the overall tenor of BT in the short time that I have been active on here. I have railed against people before when I thought they were being a bit harsh (High Speed Low Pass you all know the thread :deadhorse: ), but that was only because I care about what this forum is to long time owners and young idiots like myself alike.

Let’s face it, we’re lying to ourselves if we don’t admit that BT is basically Facebook for bonanza nerds. There is very useful mechanical information on here (for which I am very grateful), but BT is so much more. It’s a place where we can talk with individuals who share many of the same interests about very complicated issues because, at the end of the day, even if things get a bit heated, we all know that there is a shared respect for each other because we all like our flying machines.

I think the disagreement is a natural part of discourse (that’s coming from a member of the snowflake generation) and should be permitted within reasonable parameters as established by the TOS. I for one love freedom of speech even though that allows people to spout hurtful nonsense from time to time. It’s one of the lighter prices IMO that we pay for liberty.

There’s my two cents. I didn’t read the CV thread so maybe things are worse than I thought, but I’m hoping we’re all just a bit more stressed out than usual. :cross:

Clear skies BT brothers! :peace:


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 12:00 
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Jeff squared,

I have only dipped in and out of the death rate thread as I found it to be more of a frustration vent than an interesting discussion.

While I understand and support the no politics policy the moderating looks heavy handed and uneven.

As I have not closely followed the death rate thread I don’t know where Jason crossed the line.

I did see that Matt brought his abortion views into the thread and that’s still there while a thread discussing Jason’s removal was - removed.

Given the above I don’t have a solid grasp on where the line is right now.

I am sure I am not alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 12:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jeff squared,

I have only dipped in and out of the death rate thread as I found it to be more of a frustration vent than an interesting discussion.

While I understand and support the no politics policy the moderating looks heavy handed and uneven.

As I have not closely followed the death rate thread I don’t know where Jason crossed the line.

I did see that Matt brought his abortion views into the thread and that’s still there while a thread discussing Jason’s removal was - removed.

Given the above I don’t have a solid grasp on where the line is right now.

I am sure I am not alone.
Jon,

I think you raise a valid question and I'm going to attempt to answer it without referencing any particular BeechTalk member.

I'll firstly apologize in that the "line" may be unclear to some. This is probably a product of the fact that Jeff and I are operating with all of the information, including public posts, deleted posts, private communications with members, and the like. On the other hand, I fully understand that the community doesn't get to see this information and, thus, is trying to adapt without a clear idea of the bounds of civility. If I had to summarize where the limits are, I would direct attention to Jeff C.'s first post in this thread. Please note that we are not trying to be "heavy handed" and there is more to these instances than you know.

However, I acknowledge that this still may not fully explain why some members are gone and other provocative posts temporarily remain. I will say that our Terms of Service remain in effect and that personal attacks are always a violation. However, in the context of COVID-19 discussions, we have allowed ~some~ political and/or religious-based posts. However, we are seeing more of these types of posts trending in a direction that is incongruent with our TOS and the first post in this thread, and will be removing them.

As for moving forward, I think it is incumbent on all of us to check ourselves when posting--we can discuss issues without personal attacks, inflammatory language, and without the need to "win."

We want BeechTalk to remain an inviting community. And, we want ALL members to remain.

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 13:00 
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Thanks. I went back and deleted the content of one post of mine you missed. Apologies for offending with my comparison. It is, after all, your site. :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 13:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jeff squared,

I have only dipped in and out of the death rate thread as I found it to be more of a frustration vent than an interesting discussion.

While I understand and support the no politics policy the moderating looks heavy handed and uneven.

As I have not closely followed the death rate thread I don’t know where Jason crossed the line.

I did see that Matt brought his abortion views into the thread and that’s still there while a thread discussing Jason’s removal was - removed.

Given the above I don’t have a solid grasp on where the line is right now.

I am sure I am not alone.
Jon,

I think you raise a valid question and I'm going to attempt to answer it without referencing any particular BeechTalk member.

I'll firstly apologize in that the "line" may be unclear to some. This is probably a product of the fact that Jeff and I are operating with all of the information, including public posts, deleted posts, private communications with members, and the like. On the other hand, I fully understand that the community doesn't get to see this information and, thus, is trying to adapt without a clear idea of the bounds of civility. If I had to summarize where the limits are, I would direct attention to Jeff C.'s first post in this thread. Please note that we are not trying to be "heavy handed" and there is more to these instances than you know.

However, I acknowledge that this still may not fully explain why some members are gone and other provocative posts temporarily remain. I will say that our Terms of Service remain in effect and that personal attacks are always a violation. However, in the context of COVID-19 discussions, we have allowed ~some~ political and/or religious-based posts. However, we are seeing more of these types of posts trending in a direction that is incongruent with our TOS and the first post in this thread, and will be removing them.

As for moving forward, I think it is incumbent on all of us to check ourselves when posting--we can discuss issues without personal attacks, inflammatory language, and without the need to "win."

We want BeechTalk to remain an inviting community. And, we want ALL members to remain.

First and foremost, thank you for what you do. I am very appreciative. I think you've been exceedingly patient with out of bounds activity. I also think the reason why you've been more patient, is the information being exchange in the Covid section, that I have read fairly extensively, is important. It is hands down the best, balanced information I can find on this terrible situation we are dealing with. Letting some politics and unseemly behavior persist is/was important to get the information out for discussion.

IMHO, your handling of that section is "just right". Not too controlling and not too permissive.

Thank you.
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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 14:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jon,

I think you raise a valid question and I'm going to attempt to answer it without referencing any particular BeechTalk member.

I'll firstly apologize in that the "line" may be unclear to some. This is probably a product of the fact that Jeff and I are operating with all of the information, including public posts, deleted posts, private communications with members, and the like. On the other hand, I fully understand that the community doesn't get to see this information and, thus, is trying to adapt without a clear idea of the bounds of civility. If I had to summarize where the limits are, I would direct attention to Jeff C.'s first post in this thread. Please note that we are not trying to be "heavy handed" and there is more to these instances than you know.

However, I acknowledge that this still may not fully explain why some members are gone and other provocative posts temporarily remain. I will say that our Terms of Service remain in effect and that personal attacks are always a violation. However, in the context of COVID-19 discussions, we have allowed ~some~ political and/or religious-based posts. However, we are seeing more of these types of posts trending in a direction that is incongruent with our TOS and the first post in this thread, and will be removing them.

As for moving forward, I think it is incumbent on all of us to check ourselves when posting--we can discuss issues without personal attacks, inflammatory language, and without the need to "win."

We want BeechTalk to remain an inviting community. And, we want ALL members to remain.


Jeff,

Thank you for the response.

If my terming the moderation “heavy handed” was in fact too heavy handed, I apologize.

I did not consider PMs and realize the offending post may no longer exist.

As past discussions about recently removed members have been allowed (I believe) the removal of the thread about Jason’s culling deepened my confusion about what topics are currently off limits. Especially when juxtaposed with the heightened political content left standing in the death rate thread.

I attempt to sift my posts through a virtual Arlen filter though I know I am not at his level.

I do realize that moderating is a thankless time drain and we posters have an expectation threshold that approaches Devine perfection.

I also recognize the need for patience. Especially given the events of this year (A couple of tornadoes and the end of the world) that have materially affected many of our lives and finances.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 15:32 
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I applaud all the work that must go into maintaining this site.

My 2 cents: this site is an oasis away from covid19. I don't read those threads, and don't see how they could add much to my enjoyment of owning and flying a Beechcraft.


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