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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 28 May 2023, 16:48 
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Like I said earlier, I had about 50 hours turbine when I started flying the citation single pilot. Piece of cake. Ego has nothing to do with it. Quite the contrary. The safety of my friends and family is the very reason I fly a jet as opposed to single/twin pistons.
If you don’t feel comfortable flying a jet SP then for your safety and those around you, please get yourself an sic.
However, projecting your insecurities on others, the ego boost notwithstanding, will not make you a better pilot.
This is the definition of Personal Minimums. Every pilot should stick to their PERSONAL comfort level. Some of us may only be comfortable in something that cruises under 150 kts or day vfr while others are comfortable flying jets SP on raw data approaches at 0 dark 30 to 200 and 1/4.
Fly safe!!


I’ve flown a good deal professionally single pilot and also fly a jet, my point is in aviation 1k tt and 500 turbine would MAYBE get you hired as a SIC, no one would hire you to fly their family 91 or 135 with those hours. Just something to keep in mind


This argument is stupid as I will keep telling you about things I’ve done, and you’ll explain to me why it’s not going to happen. Like I said. Everyone should fly within their personal comfort level and not put any pressure on themselves or others.

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 Post subject: Re: For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 28 May 2023, 16:50 
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As to the proverbial “dark stormy night etc statement”, one doesn’t have to find oneself in those conditions. James seems to be assuming that everyone flying a jet must go no matter what.
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Robert T


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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 28 May 2023, 16:55 
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Username Protected wrote:

This argument is stupid as I will keep telling you about things I’ve done, and you’ll explain to me why it’s not going to happen. Like I said. Everyone should fly within their personal comfort level and not put any pressure on themselves or others.


Show me all the operators who are looking to hire single pilot jet captains with that low level of experience?

I’d wager the entire industry has some logic on why they don’t want people with that low of time as capt, especially single pilot

The only way you’ll get a owner to let you single pilot a jet with that low of time is if you have the money to become the owner and at that point you might be flying for a idiot lol


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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 28 May 2023, 19:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Show me all the operators who are looking to hire single pilot jet captains with that low level of experience?

Let's stipulate that total time is not the issue; I agree 1,000 TT is too low. It's all about the turbine time. I can assure you there are SP 91 operators using pilots with 500 turbine time or less (albeit 3,000 hrs + TT) all over the place flying 500 series and 525 series.

I know you said SP, but here are a few examples of direct entry CAPTAIN requirements for a few legitimate 135 operators. Yes, crew.

3,000 TT, ATP, no jet time specified.
https://flyspeedbird.com/jobs/ce-525-captain/

3,000 TT, CP, 400 jet
https://northernjet.net/careers/opening ... olland-mi/

3.000 TT, 500 turbine
https://jobs.jobvite.com/careers/jetlin ... eer%20Site

2,500 TT, ATP, prefers turbojet experience
https://www.flyexclusive.com/careers/air-crew

1,200 TT
https://fltops.boutiqueair.com/public/job/1286

We'll leave regionals out of it.

And then there is Jet It, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 28 May 2023, 19:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
Show me all the operators who are looking to hire single pilot jet captains with that low level of experience?

Let's stipulate that total time is not the issue; I agree 1,000 TT is too low. It's all about the turbine time. I can assure you there are SP 91 operators using pilots with 500 turbine time or less (albeit 3,000 hrs + TT) all over the place flying 500 series and 525 series.

I know you said SP, but here are a few examples of direct entry CAPTAIN requirements for a few legitimate 135 operators. Yes, crew.

3,000 TT, ATP, no jet time specified.
https://flyspeedbird.com/jobs/ce-525-captain/

3,000 TT, CP, 400 jet
https://northernjet.net/careers/opening ... olland-mi/

3.000 TT, 500 turbine
https://jobs.jobvite.com/careers/jetlin ... eer%20Site

2,500 TT, ATP, prefers turbojet experience
https://www.flyexclusive.com/careers/air-crew

1,200 TT
https://fltops.boutiqueair.com/public/job/1286

We'll leave regionals out of it.

And then there is Jet It, lol.

_________________
Last 60 mos: CL65 type rating, flew 121, CE680, CE525S, and CE500 type ratings.


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 Post subject: Re: For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 28 May 2023, 19:49 
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boutique proves my point lol

But as you can see 2500-3k tt is the sweet spot, and that’s not even single pilot, boutique puts two pilots in a very single pilot plane and still has issues


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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 30 May 2023, 18:30 
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Username Protected wrote:

It is for someone that’s spent his time flying high-performance, piston singles.


Who would be in a world of hurt going “zero to hero” in a jet on the dark stormy night when things go sideways


In the real world 1,000hrs and 500 turbine maybe get you a job flying skydivers, flying pax in a jet with those qualifications would get you laughed at and resume

Image


But hey, if you got the $$

Safety of your family and friends < your ego


Really dude? Join the present times. 500 turbine is overqualified. 50 multi no turbine will get you a job dropping meat bombs. 50 multi and 1000 TT and you’re o. At any regional or fractional. And that will be lowering where the ATP isn’t required.

Been doing this long enough and so have you. Numbers don’t equate to ability and train ability. Total time just shows how long you’ve survived yours and othe4s dumb mistakes while flying.

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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 30 May 2023, 18:56 
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Username Protected wrote:

Really dude? Join the present times. 500 turbine is overqualified. 50 multi no turbine will get you a job dropping meat bombs. 50 multi and 1000 TT and you’re o. At any regional or fractional. And that will be lowering where the ATP isn’t required.

Been doing this long enough and so have you. Numbers don’t equate to ability and train ability. Total time just shows how long you’ve survived yours and othe4s dumb mistakes while flying.


Present time job postings


Seems mins have come down a little with a few only say 750tt, still a decent amount wanting 1k tt for a turbine drop zone

https://skydiverdriver.com/jump_pilot_jobs.htm


Single pilot in a jet going across the country,
You’re going to need north of 2,500tt
Most also require X turbine, X multi, etc

https://www.jsfirm.com/Pilot-Fixed%20Wi ... hquickjobs



But 1k tt or LESS, yeah no one would pay you to fly their family around with that little experience, and there is a reason for this

It’s one thing to hire a low time guy into the right seat of a jet for a few years with a higher time dude in the left seat, even 1k or less is below what many SIC jobs are requiring


I’ll stop posting on this very pretty citation for sales add, but when the comment was made about jumping into something like this with 1k tt or less I kinda had to speak up

Just because if you have enough money you can do something, doesn’t mean you should, as has been proven over and over in flying


Reminds me of

[youtube]https://youtu.be/E9UqkyWw368[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 30 May 2023, 19:41 
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Username Protected wrote:

This argument is stupid as I will keep telling you about things I’ve done, and you’ll explain to me why it’s not going to happen. Like I said. Everyone should fly within their personal comfort level and not put any pressure on themselves or others.


Show me all the operators who are looking to hire single pilot jet captains with that low level of experience?

I’d wager the entire industry has some logic on why they don’t want people with that low of time as capt, especially single pilot

The only way you’ll get a owner to let you single pilot a jet with that low of time is if you have the money to become the owner and at that point you might be flying for a idiot lol

Save your digital ink Israel. James believes that jets should only be flown by pro pilots. As a pro pilot he is talking his book. The idea of an owner-operator of a jet is anathema to him and he will shout down anyone who says otherwise.

Robert nailed it. As an owner-operator, I only fly when I want to. I ensure 1,000' ceilings to depart (so I can turn around and stay in the pattern and land if something goes wrong) and generally 1,000' ceilings to land. I did do my first approach to (almost) mins a few months ago into KAXX. But I had done the approach a number of times in VMC and felt comfortable.

I went from an SR22 to the 501 w/ 280TT, 8 hours of multi (in a Seminole to get my rating), and 5 hours of actual IMC and while it was certainly a big jump, it was (and is) totally doable. I flew with a very experienced mentor pilot (USAFA, Viper Pilot, 5 years UAL, 20 years SWA, 2 years Citations) for the first year. I now have 150 hours in the 501 and am loving it.

A straight-wing Citation is a very simple airplane to fly - definitely simpler than any propeller twin. Lose an engine and the AP won't even shut off. I have no TRs, no power brakes, all Garmin cockpit.

Also, I'm not flying into TEB on Monday morning. Although my brother-in-law lives on Lake Houston and IAH is the closest airport so have been in and out of there multiple times. But I fly in on Saturday morning and out on Monday around 11:00am. The most difficult part about that trip is taxiing at IAH. The first time I got a Descend VIA into there at night (but VMC) while part of a huge conga line of 121 traffic I was nervous that I would foul up the whole thing and cause people to miss their connections. But I knew my crap and flew it perfectly.

The bottom line is that flying a jet for fun is VERY different than being a pro pilot for some arsehole that paid big bucks for a charter that expects to be in Aspen for dinner no matter what the weather is doing and to top it off they will be 1 hour late for departure. James is exactly right that that kind of flying requires a great deal of experience. But I do not and will never live in that world. I fly when and where I want. I am also up front with passengers that we may get stuck somewhere if the plane breaks or the weather turns bad. So far that hasn't happened although we did have to make an extra stop coming back from the Bahamas last year due to t-storms in the southeast. Everyone rolled with it and we made it home a few hours late.

Obviously, a 550 is different since you need to qualify for the SPE. But I can confidently say that moving from a piston single to a 501 is a much lower overall risk than piston single to piston twin to SETP to TP to jet. Each of those intermediate steps are more difficult to fly than a 501. Yes, even the SETP - I don't have to deal w/ a prop lever and have an extra engine for reliability :duck:

Maybe a different analogy. Someone driving a Corvette around on city streets and freeways vs someone racing a Corvette in competition. Hardware is the same, skill set required is vastly different. You simply do not need a ton of training to drive a Corvette on public roads even though it is an extremely capable machine. Yes, you can still get yourself in trouble if you push beyond your own limits but the same can be said of someone flying a piston single. Knowing your limits, setting personal minimums, and sticking to them is the key to whether you live or die - not the hardware.

Now back to Mike selling another one of his great birds..... I may be a repeat customer in 350 more hours!

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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 31 May 2023, 17:38 
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[quote="Chris Leach"]
As an owner-operator, I only fly when I want to. I ensure 1,000' ceilings to depart (so I can turn around and stay in the pattern and land if something goes wrong) and generally 1,000' ceilings to land. I did do my first approach to (almost) mins a few months ago into KAXX. But I had done the approach a number of times in VMC and felt comfortable.

I went from an SR22 to the 501 w/ 280TT, 8 hours of multi (in a Seminole to get my rating), and 5 hours of actual IMC and while it was certainly a big jump, it was (and is) totally doable. I flew with a very experienced mentor pilot (USAFA, Viper Pilot, 5 years UAL, 20 years SWA, 2 years Citations) for the first year. I now have 150 hours in the 501 and am loving it.

/quote]

So let me get this straight just so I understand. You're a 430TT pilot who just took a jet (presumably filled with your family) down to minimums (while breaking your personal mins per above) at an ~8400' airport single pilot? I'm not throwing stones and you may be the greatest pilot, but damn dude, I'm not sure I'd attempt that as a professional with my fam on board as a single pilot. You're still an inexperienced instrument pilot, whether you're in a fancy jet or a 172. Be careful.


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 Post subject: Re: For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 31 May 2023, 17:51 
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As very famous ex BT'r who I miss dearly often asked.... "What exactly is a pro-pilot?"


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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 31 May 2023, 18:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
So let me get this straight just so I understand. You're a 430TT pilot who just took a jet (presumably filled with your family) down to minimums (while breaking your personal mins per above) at an ~8400' airport single pilot? I'm not throwing stones and you may be the greatest pilot, but damn dude, I'm not sure I'd attempt that as a professional with my fam on board as a single pilot. You're still an inexperienced instrument pilot, whether you're in a fancy jet or a 172. Be careful.




Way that I read it he had a very high time guy up front with him for a year +

Which completely changes the situation, shooting down to mins with that dude in the other seat is like having this to hit when needed



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 Post subject: Re: For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 31 May 2023, 19:08 
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Based on my experience both flying and doing anesthesia, everything is fine until it isn't. The more experience one has the more likely it is that one will be up to the challenge of an emergency. Reminds me of the old saw about having two buckets, one of luck, the other of experience. Luck is full, experience is empty, when starting to fly. It is hoped that the experience bucket fills before the luck bucket runs out.


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 Post subject: Re: For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 31 May 2023, 20:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
As very famous ex BT'r who I miss dearly often asked.... "What exactly is a pro-pilot?"


Fairly certain you know the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Still For Sale: All Garmin Citation 550
PostPosted: 31 May 2023, 22:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
As an owner-operator, I only fly when I want to. I ensure 1,000' ceilings to depart (so I can turn around and stay in the pattern and land if something goes wrong) and generally 1,000' ceilings to land. I did do my first approach to (almost) mins a few months ago into KAXX. But I had done the approach a number of times in VMC and felt comfortable.

I went from an SR22 to the 501 w/ 280TT, 8 hours of multi (in a Seminole to get my rating), and 5 hours of actual IMC and while it was certainly a big jump, it was (and is) totally doable. I flew with a very experienced mentor pilot (USAFA, Viper Pilot, 5 years UAL, 20 years SWA, 2 years Citations) for the first year. I now have 150 hours in the 501 and am loving it.


So let me get this straight just so I understand. You're a 430TT pilot who just took a jet (presumably filled with your family) down to minimums (while breaking your personal mins per above) at an ~8400' airport single pilot? I'm not throwing stones and you may be the greatest pilot, but damn dude, I'm not sure I'd attempt that as a professional with my fam on board as a single pilot. You're still an inexperienced instrument pilot, whether you're in a fancy jet or a 172. Be careful.

Hi Mike,

I appreciate your concern and your tactful response. I'm sorry I glossed over some info in my post. The RNAV 17 into KAXX is an LNAV approach and has an MDA of 9960 which is 1,624 AGL. I broke out just before the plane called out "minimums" so I was ~1,700' AGL . Also, as I stated, I had done the approach a number of times in VMC so I knew what to expect with regards to the wind and terrain. From my preflight planning I knew the weather would be on the low side but forecast to be above mins (2,000' IIRC) and I had planned to go to Raton if Angel Fire was too low. So I felt comfortable going to check it out and had plenty of fuel and a backup plan if it didn't work out.

I realize that normally when one says that they "did an approach to mins" they are talking about taking an ILS or LPV down to 200'. I agree that I am not ready for such flying without an experienced pilot with me. I truly am trying to be careful and I learn a lot from other folks here on BT - even the grumpy ones.....

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