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01 Apr 2023, 18:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Under Contract : $625K Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 10:41 
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Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4670
Post Likes: +4345
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, C172
The Pluses:

Installing and Included: Dual Garmin 750s, remote audio panel, Garmin Radar, Garmin transponder. Picture below is the old panel, if you want it as is, the price is $525K.

Super low 6400 TT Airframe
Totally Squawk and Bug Free machine, no known gremlins
No Corrosion, Texas desert bird.
Fresh Hot Sections both engines, 1800 hours remaining on hots. Powerful, cool running engines.
ALL (I mean ALL) Inspections just completed
No mechanical, electrical or other known squawks
Almost new interior
Paint very acceptable (solid 8)
Tires Excellent
New Battery
Freon air
Glass Excellent
Boots Excellent
No TRs, antiskid brakes, a tad faster and lighter.
RVSM

The Minuses:
It landed gear up on grass at 600 hours since new in 1984 after running out of gas. I don't think this matters today and 5800 hours later. factory quality repair, cannot tell.

Turn Key Price is $625K. I fully endorse this airplane and will help with training/insurance/advice, delivery, etc.

Call or Text Mike at 863-899-1617. Cescom 10 report attached. Engine minors done at hot sections, pitot static related stuff gets done after avionics.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Last edited on 25 Feb 2023, 09:21, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 15:39 
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Joined: 07/01/19
Posts: 549
Post Likes: +205
Aircraft: In market
Looks like a nice base to start with. What is a rough estimate to put a G5/600 glass panel and a modern autopilot too?


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 18:02 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 16908
Post Likes: +21159
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
What is a rough estimate to put a G5/600 glass panel and a modern autopilot too?

Dual G600 TXi, dual GTN 750 Xi, GWX 75, GTX 345R, GMA 35R, misc goodies, will run you about $250K, give or take.

There's no modern autopilot STC'ed for the plane currently that I now of. There are two possible contenders, Garmin GFC 600 or STEC 5000. I am aware the STEC is flying in a 560 presently for testing. I don't think the GFC 600 is flying in any legacy Citation as of yet.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 08:44 
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Joined: 05/08/13
Posts: 281
Post Likes: +107
Company: Citation Jet Exchange
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
$250k seems low for avionics. The G600txi CJ we purchased last year, without the Garmin radar but with the gfc 600 had an invoice around $375k.

-The citation jet exchange


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 10:35 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 16908
Post Likes: +21159
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
$250k seems low for avionics. The G600txi CJ we purchased last year, without the Garmin radar but with the gfc 600 had an invoice around $375k.

I'm sure the GFC 600 was a substantial adder, probably about $100K or so.

I did my Citation V for about $234K, with the radar.

So maybe budget $300K?

Make sure the shop does dead wire stripping, and that they do a REAL weighing after the work (no W&B math, it will be way wrong).

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 18:40 
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Joined: 02/15/16
Posts: 196
Post Likes: +31
Location: KJBR Arkansas
Aircraft: Baron 58
Mike, what is dead wire stripping? Other than age what is the concern with this autopilot?


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 19:11 
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Joined: 08/01/15
Posts: 139
Post Likes: +54
Aircraft: Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
Mike, what is dead wire stripping? Other than age what is the concern with this autopilot?

Removing the old wiring that would no longer be used when adding new equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 19:54 
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Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 850
Post Likes: +803
Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
Username Protected wrote:
Mike, what is dead wire stripping? Other than age what is the concern with this autopilot?

There will be a LOT of wires no longer used if you go to an all glass cockpit. It takes the shop extra time but they should remove all unused wires. This will save you a ton of weight as well as make future troubleshooting and upgrades simpler.

The SPZ-500 is a solid AP. Integration between the Garmin and SPZ is very good. There is no VNAV but the PFD will give you vertical guidance and you can just dial in pitch to match. It will capture and fly an ILS, RNAV, or visual approach horizontally and vertically as well as the missed approach. It has IAS and VS modes for climbs and descents with altitude preselect. Heading, Nav, and Approach modes.

Mine will porpoise in VS mode when doing a 2,000fpm red line descent so I do those descents in pitch mode. But I do VS descents in the terminal area all the time.

Mike (and many of us) are hoping for a modern/digital AP both to get VNAV and also it would allows us to remove the AC inverters - the AP/FD are the only things still using AC power after you move to glass. This would save weight and remove more things that might break.

Here's a picture of my panel to compare to the above. Note this is the older non-Txi PFD and GTN.
Attachment:
50CF166E-F4BE-472C-809A-5AC22A999FCD.jpg


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 20:25 
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Joined: 03/04/13
Posts: 817
Post Likes: +635
Username Protected wrote:
Mike, what is dead wire stripping? Other than age what is the concern with this autopilot?

There will be a LOT of wires no longer used if you go to an all glass cockpit. It takes the shop extra time but they should remove all unused wires. This will save you a ton of weight as well as make future troubleshooting and upgrades simpler.

The SPZ-500 is a solid AP. Integration between the Garmin and SPZ is very good. There is no VNAV but the PFD will give you vertical guidance and you can just dial in pitch to match. It will capture and fly an ILS, RNAV, or visual approach horizontally and vertically as well as the missed approach. It has IAS and VS modes for climbs and descents with altitude preselect. Heading, Nav, and Approach modes.

Mine will porpoise in VS mode when doing a 2,000fpm red line descent so I do those descents in pitch mode. But I do VS descents in the terminal area all the time.

Mike (and many of us) are hoping for a modern/digital AP both to get VNAV and also it would allows us to remove the AC inverters - the AP/FD are the only things still using AC power after you move to glass. This would save weight and remove more things that might break.

Here's a picture of my panel to compare to the above. Note this is the older non-Txi PFD and GTN.
Attachment:
50CF166E-F4BE-472C-809A-5AC22A999FCD.jpg



Wow, that really cleans it up

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 20:48 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 16908
Post Likes: +21159
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Wow, that really cleans it up

You bet.

Before:
Attachment:
n618k-panel-old.png

After:
Attachment:
n618k-panel-inflight-1.png

You can hardly believe it is the same airplane.

380 lbs lighter. This is from actual before and after weighing, not W&B math which can be wildly inaccurate.

The original delivery file from Cessna showed the avionics wiring harness weighed 226.2 lbs. This did NOT include trays, connectors, etc, JUST the wires! If you don't do dead wire stripping, you are probably carrying around 200+ lbs of useless wires.

If I could get a Garmin GFC 600 or an STEC 5000, there are about 13 boxes I can remove from the plane, likely saving another 100 lbs or more. These would be: FZ 500 flight director computer, AP 200 autopilot computer, GAD 43e autopilot adapter, GAD 42 roll steering adapter, ADC-602 air data adapter, AC inverter #1, AC inverter #2, AC inverter fail over relay system, SR-64 relay box, AP control head, FD control head, numerous discrete indicators, etc.

Additionally, I have a radar altimeter which my SPZ requires (supposedly) to fly precision approaches correctly. That consists of a computer box and an antenna array. With the SPZ gone, I could delete the radar altimeter and save that weight, too. The PFD panels have GPS derived AGL readout which would do as good, if not better, AGL readout than the radar altimeter. Granted I would lose that in a GPS denied situation, but that's going to be very rare and I don't find a radar altimeter to be all that useful.

I have an overall policy of removing equipment that doesn't have a compelling reason to exist. Then it doesn't take weight, space, time, or money.

Mike C.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2023, 21:00 
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Joined: 03/04/13
Posts: 817
Post Likes: +635
Username Protected wrote:
Wow, that really cleans it up

You bet.

Before:
Attachment:
n618k-panel-old.png

After:
Attachment:
n618k-panel-inflight-1.png

You can hardly believe it is the same airplane.

380 lbs lighter. This is from actual before and after weighing, not W&B math which can be wildly inaccurate.

The original delivery file from Cessna showed the avionics wiring harness weighed 226.2 lbs. This did NOT include trays, connectors, etc, JUST the wires! If you don't do dead wire stripping, you are probably carrying around 200+ lbs of useless wires.

If I could get a Garmin GFC 600 or an STEC 5000, there are about 13 boxes I can remove from the plane, likely saving another 100 lbs or more. These would be: FZ 500 flight director computer, AP 200 autopilot computer, GAD 43e autopilot adapter, GAD 42 roll steering adapter, ADC-602 air data adapter, AC inverter #1, AC inverter #2, AC inverter fail over relay system, SR-64 relay box, AP control head, FD control head, numerous discrete indicators, etc.

Additionally, I have a radar altimeter which my SPZ requires (supposedly) to fly precision approaches correctly. That consists of a computer box and an antenna array. With the SPZ gone, I could delete the radar altimeter and save that weight, too. The PFD panels have GPS derived AGL readout which would do as good, if not better, AGL readout than the radar altimeter. Granted I would lose that in a GPS denied situation, but that's going to be very rare and I don't find a radar altimeter to be all that useful.

I have an overall policy of removing equipment that doesn't have a compelling reason to exist. Then it doesn't take weight, space, time, or money.

Mike C.



Impressive!

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 11:01 
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Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4670
Post Likes: +4345
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, C172
I haven’t found the radar altimeter to do anything at all on the approach as claimed in the manual


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 23:18 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 16908
Post Likes: +21159
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I haven’t found the radar altimeter to do anything at all on the approach as claimed in the manual

Me, neither.

I'm going to try approaches with it turned off (breaker pulled) to see what happens.

It can't do very well in cases where the terrain changes before the runway, like KAVP with a cliff before the runway.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2023, 23:41 
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Joined: 02/15/16
Posts: 196
Post Likes: +31
Location: KJBR Arkansas
Aircraft: Baron 58
Username Protected wrote:
Mike, what is dead wire stripping? Other than age what is the concern with this autopilot?

There will be a LOT of wires no longer used if you go to an all glass cockpit. It takes the shop extra time but they should remove all unused wires. This will save you a ton of weight as well as make future troubleshooting and upgrades simpler.

The SPZ-500 is a solid AP. Integration between the Garmin and SPZ is very good. There is no VNAV but the PFD will give you vertical guidance and you can just dial in pitch to match. It will capture and fly an ILS, RNAV, or visual approach horizontally and vertically as well as the missed approach. It has IAS and VS modes for climbs and descents with altitude preselect. Heading, Nav, and Approach modes.

Mine will porpoise in VS mode when doing a 2,000fpm red line descent so I do those descents in pitch mode. But I do VS descents in the terminal area all the time.


Mike (and many of us) are hoping for a modern/digital AP both to get VNAV and also it would allows us to remove the AC inverters - the AP/FD are the only things still using AC power after you move to glass. This would save weight and remove more things that might break.

Here's a picture of my panel to compare to the above. Note this is the older non-Txi PFD and GTN.
Attachment:
50CF166E-F4BE-472C-809A-5AC22A999FCD.jpg


Nice, Love the panel

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2023, 00:04 
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 Profile




Joined: 06/17/14
Posts: 4251
Post Likes: +1502
Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
That is a whole lot of plane and a whole lot of fun! I love seeing your Citations! …just need to do better in a business or win the lotto.


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