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24 Sep 2020, 11:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 09:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
1505TIT? Thats low & ROP.

Wasn't talking about the TIT. That's why I said EGT's.



I assumed you understood the relationship. There is no way to determine absolute EGT from that photo other than knowing they are generally lower than TIT in a balanced system.

Turbo’d pistons are very different. Lower compression, different timing advance, higher IAT, turbo back-pressure on exhaust, etc. can all affect EGT/TIT.

Last edited on 13 Oct 2019, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 09:26 
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, FL (X50)
Aircraft: Cessna 310i
Username Protected wrote:
I have a G4 twin like that, those EGT's are much higher than I ever see with my Baron.

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Rich,

The EGT bar height is adjustable on the G4 (regardless of what the actual EGT temps are), so you can't say these EGTs are higher or lower than others without seeing the actual numbers.... One push on the SEL button and then select "Adjust Bar Height"

On your photo, it's only showing the CHTs.
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I have dual G3s, and the actual EGT and CHT numbers are shown simultaneously. The bar heights are adjustable in the same way as on the G4.
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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 09:47 
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Joined: 03/22/18
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Rich,

The EGT bar height is adjustable on the G4 (regardless of what the actual EGT temps are), so you can't say these EGTs are higher or lower than others without seeing the actual numbers.... One push on the SEL button and then select "Adjust Bar Height"

On your photo, it's only showing the CHTs.
---------------------------
I have dual G3s, and the actual EGT and CHT numbers are shown simultaneously. The bar heights are adjustable in the same way as on the G4.

It's not showing the EGT *value* on my combined page, which I'm unsure why it does that (maybe not enough real estate on a twin gauge showing both engines - I haven't dug in the settings yet), but on the L/R engine pages it shows the numbers, and my absolute high scale is set for max EGT, so on the page like I have shown above (which was right when started dialing in the GAMI's), you can see how close I am to absolute max (top red line).

I assumed Rocky had his set similarly, so when I saw EGT values well above the top red bar, it made me wonder, which is why I asked. Makes sense if it's scalable (I assumed it was) and he just doesn't have it setup like I have mine set. I like to know how close I am to max, especially running LOP.

Obviously in a TC aircraft, TIT rules, but I also wouldn't want to exceed max EGT either.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 10:06 
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Joined: 01/18/11
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Location: Lake Marion, SC KOGB
Aircraft: B60 Duke
There is no published maximum egt i can find for continental nor lycoming engines.
Many turbocharged engines have sodium filled valves or other higher temp valves to allow for hotter exhaust. TIT is the limit, not egt. Running lean of peak i have never allowed tit to exceed 1600 as i lean , if well tuned the Duke engine can be set up at 2500 rpm and 31” mp and will not run rough till about 14 gpg. Tit will fall as fuel flow falls, you are cooling with air, airspeed will begin to fall at about 19gph.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 10:26 
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
There is no published maximum egt i can find for continental nor lycoming engines.
Many turbocharged engines have sodium filled valves or other higher temp valves to allow for hotter exhaust. TIT is the limit, not egt. Running lean of peak i have never allowed tit to exceed 1600 as i lean , if well tuned the Duke engine can be set up at 2500 rpm and 31” mp and will not run rough till about 14 gpg. Tit will fall as fuel flow falls, you are cooling with air, airspeed will begin to fall at about 19gph.

Thanks, Rocky, good info.

I know there's no "published" max, but on recommendation from both I/A's I've known since I was a teenager and I trust, I've been using 1,600 max EGT on my G4. I've never seen it exceed 1,500 even setting for LOP, but I'm also not forcing hot air into it after a turbocharger compressor with no intercooler.

Clearly there is a max, otherwise we wouldn't see burnt valves and such, but I was just curious when I saw your gauge. On a Continental IO-520 the exhaust valve part number is the same as the TSIO-520 and also the GTSIO-520.

I was wondering if you could set the Duke up for 55% power in the high teens or low 20's and get ~185 KTAS on 13GPH per side (just following the fuel curve from 75-65% power and consumption some have posted). Not that you want to go slow in a fast plane, but on long range flights, it might make the difference of a fuel stop.

Duke: 220 KTAS at 44 gph with 200 gal usable = 3.5 takeoff to touchdown with IFR reserve = 770nm range give or take.

Baron: 200 KTAS at 32 gph with 136 usable = 3.75 takeoff to touchdown with IFR reserve = 750nm range give or take.

Clearly the Duke has a lot of pluses a C55 doesn't (roomy, FIKI, get on top of weather instead of bumping around in the middle of it like I did the entire way up to RIC for annual a couple weeks ago), but I'm wondering if you can stretch the range to 1,000nm by just powering back a bit.

Taking 45 minutes longer in flight to get to the islands is faster than a fuel stop.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 11:01 
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Joined: 01/18/11
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Location: Lake Marion, SC KOGB
Aircraft: B60 Duke
At 55% power you should get 195-200kts at 22,000 fuel flow of about 16 per side and about 1000 mile range with 45 minute reserve. My personal longest leg is 800 miles.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 11:20 
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Location: Nashville, TN
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Username Protected wrote:
At 55% power you should get 195-200kts at 22,000 fuel flow of about 16 per side and about 1000 mile range with 45 minute reserve. My personal longest leg is 800 miles.

Thanks, Rocky.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 11:20 
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Company: Rusnak Auto Group
Location: Newport Coast, CA
Aircraft: Baron B55 N7123N
One of the many things in my collection of GA memorabilia is a 1981 Beech publication used to train their salespeople on the Model 60. Enjoy the photo excerpts below - hopefully a few questions might be answered regarding range and endurance. :pilot:


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 11:21 
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Joined: 08/21/13
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Location: Charlotte NC (KEQY)
Aircraft: 1969 B55 (TC-1209)
Please be more specific when you say "Baron". On my Baron B55 32 gph is insanely fuel dumping rich. I get 187 TAS at roughly 10k at 22gph.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 12:14 
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Joined: 03/22/18
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Please be more specific when you say "Baron". On my Baron B55 32 gph is insanely fuel dumping rich. I get 187 TAS at roughly 10k at 22gph.

See picture above.

C55 Baron, IO-520, 8,000-9,000', 2500 RPM, max MP, ~200 KTAS, leanest cylinder 75 ROP, average cylinders 90 or so ROP, burning 16GPH per side = 32GPH.

Pulled back LOP at that setting = ~187-188 KTAS, 20 deg LOP, 13gph per side = 26GPH.

Verified on a couple flights so far. Trying to get a little further back but I doubt we'll get much less than 12.5 GPH at 30 deg LOP. Past 40-45 LOP and cylinders start dying, and that's on a brand new rebuild engine, not an old one (although the 1,400 hour engine does the same thing).

I think Sven has only seen 11GPH per side at that kind of speed up in the low teens. Yours would be the fastest Baron I've ever heard of burning only 11GPH per side at 10k. Most people are back in the high 170's when they get that far lean, if they can do it at all that low. At least those who have posted actual pictures and 5-leg TAS / groundspeed average tracks.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 12:15 
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Joined: 03/22/18
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Thanks, Sven, pretty cool to have that!

Wish GAMI would make injectors for the Duke. I bet it would get a whole let better fuel economy LOP.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 12:30 
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Joined: 12/05/12
Posts: 783
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Location: KVCB
Aircraft: P35, BE60
Username Protected wrote:
There is no published maximum egt i can find for continental nor lycoming engines.
Many turbocharged engines have sodium filled valves or other higher temp valves to allow for hotter exhaust. TIT is the limit, not egt. Running lean of peak i have never allowed tit to exceed 1600 as i lean , if well tuned the Duke engine can be set up at 2500 rpm and 31” mp and will not run rough till about 14 gpg. Tit will fall as fuel flow falls, you are cooling with air, airspeed will begin to fall at about 19gph.

Thanks, Rocky, good info.

I know there's no "published" max, but on recommendation from both I/A's I've known since I was a teenager and I trust, I've been using 1,600 max EGT on my G4. I've never seen it exceed 1,500 even setting for LOP, but I'm also not forcing hot air into it after a turbocharger compressor with no intercooler.

Clearly there is a max, otherwise we wouldn't see burnt valves and such, but I was just curious when I saw your gauge. On a Continental IO-520 the exhaust valve part number is the same as the TSIO-520 and also the GTSIO-520.

I was wondering if you could set the Duke up for 55% power in the high teens or low 20's and get ~185 KTAS on 13GPH per side (just following the fuel curve from 75-65% power and consumption some have posted). Not that you want to go slow in a fast plane, but on long range flights, it might make the difference of a fuel stop.

Duke: 220 KTAS at 44 gph with 200 gal usable = 3.5 takeoff to touchdown with IFR reserve = 770nm range give or take.

Baron: 200 KTAS at 32 gph with 136 usable = 3.75 takeoff to touchdown with IFR reserve = 750nm range give or take.

Clearly the Duke has a lot of pluses a C55 doesn't (roomy, FIKI, get on top of weather instead of bumping around in the middle of it like I did the entire way up to RIC for annual a couple weeks ago), but I'm wondering if you can stretch the range to 1,000nm by just powering back a bit.

Taking 45 minutes longer in flight to get to the islands is faster than a fuel stop.


First, many Dukes have 232 gallons usable. Mine does so the following calculations assume that.

First 50nm, climb to 17,500 and 20 minutes from line up on the runway: 20 gallons
Cruise at 65% & 214kts TAS: 38gph
1 hour reserve at 45% & 182kts TAS: 28gph

So that is 1044nm @ 65% and 17,500 with a 1 hour reserve at 45%; add 2% range for every 1000’ higher and subtract about 1.1 gallon for every thousand feet of additional climb.

Long range at the same 17,500 but at 45% with a 1 hour reserve would be 1203nm and you would add the same 2% range for every 1000’ higher and subtract about 1.1 gallon for every thousand feet of additional climb.

Note: my Duke has 232 gallons of fuel and the winglets, strikes, and vg’s. I make slightly better than book speeds, perhaps because of winglets.

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