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24 Sep 2020, 10:10 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 19:27 
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Joined: 05/12/09
Posts: 160
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Company: AWS Inc
Location: Plainview Tx.
Aircraft: B36TC/BE60
Rich, talk about conflict between economy and comfort. My B36TC only 20kts slower on 35 gallons less fuel and the Bonanza has considerably more range... but after you ride in a pressurized cabin, it's hard to go without,


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 19:54 
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Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 5713
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Location: Lake Marion, SC KOGB
Aircraft: B60 Duke
Fairly typical with winglets. 40gph burn
5-6 kts faster without.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 22:02 
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Joined: 03/21/12
Posts: 414
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Location: KHHG
Aircraft: B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Thread drift for sure, but I think Dukes are a huge opportunity that some will regret not taking advantage of someday. If you decide you need pressurization it's the best deal going. Looked at Malibu/Mirage hard, even joined the MMOPA, super-efficient machine, but the bottom-end of that market is 350-370K, and maintenance 20-30k per year. 58p, nice machine, but a loaded, decent timed plane is 250-275K. Joined the Twin Cessna Org. and shopped C340's hard, went to Twin Cessna convention. Decent machines, (good times, a little glass) are 225-300K, lot's of questionable equipment machines out there.

Looked at several Super-loaded Dukes,(G600,750,650,Radar, new a/p, adsb, eng. monitor) all priced below what the equipment cost... What was the catch? It burns 50 gph! that's it. Maintenance no more than a 58p, roomier, faster, incredibly stout. Need to come down from FL 240? 3 deg. descent is 1/2 of the the groundspeed (sorta, 220 gs descend at 1100 fpm) leave the the power at cruise, just nose it over, won't even get near the yellow band, leave the power at cruise till pattern alt. or the IAF.

The 150K I banked compared to the other machines is going to buy me a lot of gas!

Jeffery


Yeah! What he said! :woot:

Jim
N911S


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 23:17 
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Joined: 08/28/14
Posts: 1945
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Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Aircraft: E50,56TC,B60
Amen to that.

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 23:21 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 3282
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Rich, talk about conflict between economy and comfort. My B36TC only 20kts slower on 35 gallons less fuel and the Bonanza has considerably more range... but after you ride in a pressurized cabin, it's hard to go without,

Yeah, I'm afraid if I take my wife up in one I'll end up owning it.

:rofl:

The Bonanza is definitely more fuel efficient, but I accept the higher fuel burn on the Baron as the price I pay for flying. My wife won't get in a piston single at all anymore.

May lose my mind when my son starts flying.

:ohno:


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 23:23 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 3282
Post Likes: +1654
Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Fairly typical with winglets. 40gph burn
5-6 kts faster without.

Those are some serious EGT's. You flying that bird LOP? Or is that just normal Duke temps?

Any update on Laz? The shop never did call me back.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 03:09 
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Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13101
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Username Protected wrote:
Fairly typical with winglets. 40gph burn
5-6 kts faster without.

Those are some serious EGT's. You flying that bird LOP? Or is that just normal Duke temps?

Any update on Laz? The shop never did call me back.

1505TIT? Thats low & ROP.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 07:33 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 3282
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
1505TIT? Thats low & ROP.

Wasn't talking about the TIT. That's why I said EGT's.

I have a G4 twin like that, those EGT's are much higher than I ever see with my Baron. The left is ROP, the right is LOP. His EGT's are almost at the top of the graph, which is why I asked.

May just be a scaling thing where his max EGT's aren't set to the TIO-541 limits so they look high when they aren't, but I was just curious.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 07:38 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 3282
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Repeating twice-told tales that I can't verify, but the knock has always been the prop size, basically using the same Bonanza/Baron gear the machine was prop-clearance challenged. Supposedly the Beech engineers wanted to re-engineer the gear but were denied, might have been faster than the KingAir! Nacelles are pretty blocky, but the engines run cool.

I was just curious, since the Aerostar uses small-ish diameter props also but is ~30 KTAS faster on allegedly the same horsepower, give or take, and I read something about excess drag on what appears by looking at it to be an aerodynamically-slick airframe design.

Maybe the cowlings? Because the rest of the Duke looks so streamlined and sexy, it's hard to imagine where the drag would be coming from? Unless that's just an old wive's tale too, and the 220-230 Kt speed is just a byproduct of the design needing 10-20% more horsepower...?

The turbine version sure is faster, that's for sure, but another 20 gph (60) and 200AMU...

:whiteflag:

:rofl:


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 08:10 
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Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 5713
Post Likes: +2366
Location: Lake Marion, SC KOGB
Aircraft: B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
1505TIT? Thats low & ROP.

Wasn't talking about the TIT. That's why I said EGT's.

I have a G4 twin like that, those EGT's are much higher than I ever see with my Baron. The left is ROP, the right is LOP. His EGT's are almost at the top of the graph, which is why I asked.

May just be a scaling thing where his max EGT's aren't set to the TIO-541 limits so they look high when they aren't, but I was just curious.

Image


1600 tit is redline. I stay under 1550. Thus egt could be a bit warmer.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 08:44 
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Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 5713
Post Likes: +2366
Location: Lake Marion, SC KOGB
Aircraft: B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Fairly typical with winglets. 40gph burn
5-6 kts faster without.

Those are some serious EGT's. You flying that bird LOP? Or is that just normal Duke temps?

Any update on Laz? The shop never did call me back.

I have no idea. Give them a call. Make an offer. It is an abandoned project.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 08:49 
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Joined: 12/05/12
Posts: 783
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Location: KVCB
Aircraft: P35, BE60
Username Protected wrote:
Good points.

I look at it from a slightly different perspective. I would *LIKE* pressurization and FIKI, but my mission only requires it about 3-4 times a year. Mainly for the ice portion.

I would be selling my $95k-100, very nice Baron that I spent the last year getting exactly right and getting into something that would require me spending $50k more just to burn 40% more gas on the same flights.

And spend double my costs on insurance, hangar, and annuals.

It's a shame the Duke isn't more fuel efficient. Looking at the lines I'm still trying to figure out why. Just by looking at it, the Duke should be just as fuel efficient as an Aerostar, but it isn't even close. Why is that?


I think you should sit in a Duke. You will quickly see that it is a larger plane than the A*. The Duke will hold 6 people very comfortably. There is no need to remove a seat as most do in the A*. A larger airframe will have more drag, but I don’t think the 38gph I burn is excessive at all. Your first 50 miles and 20 minutes, you will burn 20 gallons to get to 17.5. After that, it’s 38 gph in my plane to get 214kts TAS. Your passengers in the back are perfectly comfortable in the Duke. No one feels crowded.


Last edited on 13 Oct 2019, 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 08:50 
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Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 5713
Post Likes: +2366
Location: Lake Marion, SC KOGB
Aircraft: B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Repeating twice-told tales that I can't verify, but the knock has always been the prop size, basically using the same Bonanza/Baron gear the machine was prop-clearance challenged. Supposedly the Beech engineers wanted to re-engineer the gear but were denied, might have been faster than the KingAir! Nacelles are pretty blocky, but the engines run cool.

I was just curious, since the Aerostar uses small-ish diameter props also but is ~30 KTAS faster on allegedly the same horsepower, give or take, and I read something about excess drag on what appears by looking at it to be an aerodynamically-slick airframe design.

Maybe the cowlings? Because the rest of the Duke looks so streamlined and sexy, it's hard to imagine where the drag would be coming from? Unless that's just an old wive's tale too, and the 220-230 Kt speed is just a byproduct of the design needing 10-20% more horsepower...?

The turbine version sure is faster, that's for sure, but another 20 gph (60) and 200AMU...

:whiteflag:

:rofl:

The turbine version has the same diameter issues. That prop sure handles the horsepower better. I find the standard Duke prop slow to deliver power, but around 50kts acceleration is pretty good. Single engine angle of climb is good. Duke is not the ground hog it is alleged be. The blue line school and no flap take off guys gave it that reputation.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 09:07 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 3282
Post Likes: +1654
Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
The turbine version has the same diameter issues. That prop sure handles the horsepower better. I find the standard Duke prop slow to deliver power, but around 50kts acceleration is pretty good. Single engine angle of climb is good. Duke is not the ground hog it is alleged be. The blue line school and no flap take off guys gave it that reputation.

That gave me a chuckle. I also take off regularly with flaps in the Baron, especially on <5,000' runways when at higher gross weights. I just stay in ground effect for a few seconds until above blue line then start climbing. Chops an easy 30% off my ground roll.

:shrug:

Still can't believe you've had to abandon Laz. I keep hoping to hear someone has bought him/her and successfully is up and flying again.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 09:14 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 3282
Post Likes: +1654
Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:

I think you should sit in a Duke. You will quickly see that it is a larger plane than the A*. The Duke will hold 6 people very comfortably. There is no need to remove a seat as most do in the A*. A larger airframe will have more drag, but I don’t think the 38gph I burn is excessive at all. Your first 50 miles and 20 minutes, you will burn 20 gallons to get to 17.5. After that, it’s 38 gph in my plane to get 214kts TAS. Your passengers in the back are perfectly comfortable in the Duke. No one feels crowded.

I'm sure they are, it definitely looks bigger than the A* cabin.


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