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16 Feb 2020, 21:54 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 20:01 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 2969
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Last I heard, 3 weeks ago, Laz was still in Mexia in annual. He said they were "almost done" but didn't have a total bill on the work to date.

Rocky wanted $70k last I checked and whatever the bill is in Mexia.

Probably $140k or so at the end of the day. Seems to be about right, there's another one at that price point on Controller with a fresh annual and good paint, engines, and avionics.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 21:58 
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Joined: 07/04/11
Posts: 1555
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Company: W. John Gadd, Esq.
Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
Username Protected wrote:
Last I heard, 3 weeks ago, Laz was still in Mexia in annual. He said they were "almost done" but didn't have a total bill on the work to date.

Rocky wanted $70k last I checked and whatever the bill is in Mexia.

Probably $140k or so at the end of the day. Seems to be about right, there's another one at that price point on Controller with a fresh annual and good paint, engines, and avionics.



Seems like the engine on the Dukes is what scares most off. Too bad there's not a more commonly acceptable alternative short of going the "Royal duke" route.

Laz is a very sharp plane.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 22:41 
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Joined: 08/28/14
Posts: 1798
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Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Aircraft: E50,56TC,B60
Everyone keeps saying the engines scare them off.....I don’t know what everyone’s experience level is but as someone who operates a few of those engines, you need to try drinking from a different well. They are a great robust engine that run smooth as silk, there is plentiful parts and the prices aren't the exaggerated amount everyone calls them to be. I topped one of my engines over the last two weeks, I didn’t find the parts, shop bill or the actual process to be anything abnormal.

The duke is not a hard airplane to work on, it’s an airplane that requires someone to be mechanically familiar with it. Otherwise your just paying to train whatever random shop you have it at to get an education in them. Laz seems like a great airplane, if it were me I would put a contract in place to buy this airplane with Rocky and the shop contingent on this. We are going to fly the airplane 20 hours, I’ll pay for the fuel and consumables. You two cover the maintenance and squawks for the purchase price. In 20 hours you will have mitigated 85% of the risk of a major expense in the near future under your new ownership. Your going to put in 5k in fuel and those two will probably put in 5k each in squawks.

Our duke sat for a while, we worked on it diligently and it had absolutely no squawks when it was ready to be flown home. When it got home it came with a notepad list of squawks totaling about 5k. Things that would of never been able to be figured out or known until it was flown some.


Chris


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 23:16 
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Joined: 03/22/18
Posts: 2969
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Last I heard, 3 weeks ago, Laz was still in Mexia in annual. He said they were "almost done" but didn't have a total bill on the work to date.

Rocky wanted $70k last I checked and whatever the bill is in Mexia.

Probably $140k or so at the end of the day. Seems to be about right, there's another one at that price point on Controller with a fresh annual and good paint, engines, and avionics.



Seems like the engine on the Dukes is what scares most off. Too bad there's not a more commonly acceptable alternative short of going the "Royal duke" route.

Laz is a very sharp plane.

Someone should do the leg work with a DER to put two Walter 601D's on the plane since they're essentially a PT6 copy in every important way.

I was chatting with my local FSDO about using an alternate prop on my Baron and asked them about this idea. They said they would entertain it, Experimental at first, but eventually with a DER towards field approval and possibly an STC ($$$ but potentially much more reasonable to do).

A $150,000 STC sounds a lot more reasonable when you can barely overhaul the 541's for that.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2019, 14:15 
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Posts: 298
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Aircraft: Dakota
Username Protected wrote:
Everyone keeps saying the engines scare them off.....I don’t know what everyone’s experience level is but as someone who operates a few of those engines, you need to try drinking from a different well. They are a great robust engine that run smooth as silk, there is plentiful parts and the prices aren't the exaggerated amount everyone calls them to be. I topped one of my engines over the last two weeks, I didn’t find the parts, shop bill or the actual process to be anything abnormal.

The duke is not a hard airplane to work on, it’s an airplane that requires someone to be mechanically familiar with it. Otherwise your just paying to train whatever random shop you have it at to get an education in them. Laz seems like a great airplane, if it were me I would put a contract in place to buy this airplane with Rocky and the shop contingent on this. We are going to fly the airplane 20 hours, I’ll pay for the fuel and consumables. You two cover the maintenance and squawks for the purchase price. In 20 hours you will have mitigated 85% of the risk of a major expense in the near future under your new ownership. Your going to put in 5k in fuel and those two will probably put in 5k each in squawks.

Our duke sat for a while, we worked on it diligently and it had absolutely no squawks when it was ready to be flown home. When it got home it came with a notepad list of squawks totaling about 5k. Things that would of never been able to be figured out or known until it was flown some.


Chris

Good post Chris. Quick question... Do these engines need the intercoolers to run well? I understand the concept but I don't like those draggy scoops on the bottom of the cowlings. Many Dukes have them so they must offer a benefit...


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2019, 14:57 
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Location: KVCB
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Not Chris, but Conrad Dahl removed them from mine and replaced with non-intercooled engines a few years before I bought N100RA. Some are of the opinion that the added drag isn't a good trade off. Others love their intercoolers. All I can say is that I close cowl flaps before takeoff and open them when I'm on the ground again. The Duke is cooled by fuel and in my experience has been that is enough. YMMV.


Last edited on 30 Sep 2019, 15:00, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2019, 14:59 
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Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Aircraft: E50,56TC,B60
I agree with Jim. I don't have them on the Duke or the 56TC and have never had the demand or desire to add them.

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 14:29 
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Location: Wisconsin
Aircraft: CJ525, Husky Amphib
not needed, but they do provide some improvements up high. they are bit of plumbing inconvenience and can be in the way of things when performing some maint. I wouldn't rule them out if the rest of the plane was a good prospect, but wouldn't buy them to put on the plane.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 14:32 
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Anybody hear about Laz?

Market seems to be flooded right now. Had one guy out in California trying to sell me his Duke for $60k that allegedly was currently running and in-annual with old radios.

:whiteflag:


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 23:44 
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Joined: 01/02/08
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Company: Rusnak Auto Group
Location: Newport Coast, CA
Aircraft: Baron B55 N7123N
Username Protected wrote:
Anybody hear about Laz?

Market seems to be flooded right now. Had one guy out in California trying to sell me his Duke for $60k that allegedly was currently running and in-annual with old radios.

:whiteflag:

I can believe that, Rich. The Duke is an incredible value right now but this is not an opportunity to wait until there is a stronger market and come out in the black. Simply not enough pilots with the disposable income it takes to safely operate a Model 60. I don’t see that ever changing. Times have changed and they ain’t going back.

_________________
Sven


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 17:51 
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Joined: 03/22/18
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Username Protected wrote:
Anybody hear about Laz?

Market seems to be flooded right now. Had one guy out in California trying to sell me his Duke for $60k that allegedly was currently running and in-annual with old radios.

:whiteflag:

I can believe that, Rich. The Duke is an incredible value right now but this is not an opportunity to wait until there is a stronger market and come out in the black. Simply not enough pilots with the disposable income it takes to safely operate a Model 60. I don’t see that ever changing. Times have changed and they ain’t going back.

Yeah, it's tempting, even though the Duke isn't where we want to end up I think. He's been flying it as recently as August, according to Flightaware, but looks like he just bought it.

However, in looking at several Flightaware tracks of different Dukes, I've noticed that they all seem to be around the 185-205 kt range in the mid to high teens. My Baron does that on 25% less fuel. Not pressurized or air conditioned, but if you're not going to get any real speed increase out of those higher fuel burns, why bother?

Beautiful planes, but that's a lot of dead dinosaurs for not a lot of speed. I read something recently that said although the Duke looks very streamlined, it actually carried a lot of drag. Wonder if that's actually true and if so, why?

:scratch:

Last edited on 12 Oct 2019, 18:38, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 18:17 
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Joined: 10/23/11
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Company: AWM
Location: Houston Texas
Aircraft: Ole Colemill Baron
Username Protected wrote:
Not Chris, but Conrad Dahl removed them from mine and replaced with non-intercooled engines a few years before I bought N100RA. Some are of the opinion that the added drag isn't a good trade off. Others love their intercoolers. All I can say is that I close cowl flaps before takeoff and open them when I'm on the ground again. The Duke is cooled by fuel and in my experience has been that is enough. YMMV.


That’s my old Duke too. Great plane.


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 18:47 
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Joined: 05/12/09
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Company: AWS Inc
Location: Plainview Tx.
Aircraft: B36TC/BE60
Thread drift for sure, but I think Dukes are a huge opportunity that some will regret not taking advantage of someday. If you decide you need pressurization it's the best deal going. Looked at Malibu/Mirage hard, even joined the MMOPA, super-efficient machine, but the bottom-end of that market is 350-370K, and maintenance 20-30k per year. 58p, nice machine, but a loaded, decent timed plane is 250-275K. Joined the Twin Cessna Org. and shopped C340's hard, went to Twin Cessna convention. Decent machines, (good times, a little glass) are 225-300K, lot's of questionable equipment machines out there.

Looked at several Super-loaded Dukes,(G600,750,650,Radar, new a/p, adsb, eng. monitor) all priced below what the equipment cost... What was the catch? It burns 50 gph! that's it. Maintenance no more than a 58p, roomier, faster, incredibly stout. Need to come down from FL 240? 3 deg. descent is 1/2 of the the groundspeed (sorta, 220 gs descend at 1100 fpm) leave the the power at cruise, just nose it over, won't even get near the yellow band, leave the power at cruise till pattern alt. or the IAF.

The 150K I banked compared to the other machines is going to buy me a lot of gas!

Jeffery


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 19:01 
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Joined: 03/22/18
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Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: Lazarus - a B60 Duke
Good points.

I look at it from a slightly different perspective. I would *LIKE* pressurization and FIKI, but my mission only requires it about 3-4 times a year. Mainly for the ice portion.

I would be selling my $95k-100, very nice Baron that I spent the last year getting exactly right and getting into something that would require me spending $50k more just to burn 40% more gas on the same flights.

And spend double my costs on insurance, hangar, and annuals.

It's a shame the Duke isn't more fuel efficient. Looking at the lines I'm still trying to figure out why. Just by looking at it, the Duke should be just as fuel efficient as an Aerostar, but it isn't even close. Why is that?


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 Post subject: Re: FS: Laz update asking 150k
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 19:14 
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Joined: 05/12/09
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Company: AWS Inc
Location: Plainview Tx.
Aircraft: B36TC/BE60
Repeating twice-told tales that I can't verify, but the knock has always been the prop size, basically using the same Bonanza/Baron gear the machine was prop-clearance challenged. Supposedly the Beech engineers wanted to re-engineer the gear but were denied, might have been faster than the KingAir! Nacelles are pretty blocky, but the engines run cool.


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