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23 Nov 2017, 07:05 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 06:51 
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Joined: 02/25/10
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Company: N?A
Location: Scotia, NY (KSCH)
Aircraft: 1954 Twin Bonanza
Well, I'm at the airport about to board my flight to Fort Lauderdale to look this airplane over in person. I intend to help the Owner find a Buyer for it. I am meeting a Friend of the Owner tomorrow and putting the airplane in a shop on the field to work along a local A&P to do a good visual on it. I hope to do compression checks also and run the airplane.

I will take lots of photos and report progress tomorrow.

Gregg :pilot:


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 11:32 
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Aircraft: Cessna P210
Hi Gregg - I am looking to move up to a roomy twin for my family of 5 (now have a Cessna P210). I have been planning on a Beech 18 but the Twin Bo forum sucks me in every day. I am curious about the seating arrangement in the B's that haven't been modified with an airstair door. You have 3 across the front but how many seat in the back? Is it easy to get from the front to the back (as in young kids and a mom moving back and forth?)

I am in Tallahassee and must admit I am thinking Ft. Lauderdale is not too far away. I've looked at a million pics of Twin Bos now but have never actually seen one in the flesh.


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 12:03 
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Joined: 04/28/12
Posts: 2413
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Location: Kansas City, MO (KMKC)
Aircraft: 1954 Twin Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
Hi Gregg - I am looking to move up to a roomy twin for my family of 5 (now have a Cessna P210). I have been planning on a Beech 18 but the Twin Bo forum sucks me in every day. I am curious about the seating arrangement in the B's that haven't been modified with an airstair door. You have 3 across the front but how many seat in the back? Is it easy to get from the front to the back (as in young kids and a mom moving back and forth?)

I am in Tallahassee and must admit I am thinking Ft. Lauderdale is not too far away. I've looked at a million pics of Twin Bos now but have never actually seen one in the flesh.


I have a Twin Bonanza with 3x3 seating and without an air stair (that I bought from Gregg). If you look at the pictures of this airplane, you'll see that the seat backs on the front seats are all individual. If this airplane is like mine, that front middle seatback comes out very easily and can be left out during flight. I've attached a picture of my airplane with that seatback removed. If that back is taken out, there's a ton of room to move from front to back in-flight. It, of course, gets rid of a usable seat, but it makes moving front to back easy. This airplane appears to have two captains chairs in the back, but I imagine Gregg could help you get a different seating arrangement in the back (either a bench seat, a couch, etc.) to get up to 3 seats in the back so you could fly with only 2 up front.

With all three front seat backs in place, it takes a little bit of gymnastics to climb over the seat into the back during flight, probably not something I'd want to do very often.


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 12:10 
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Joined: 02/26/08
Posts: 3316
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Location: Dallas, TX (KADS)
Aircraft: 1964 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
Hi Gregg - I am looking to move up to a roomy twin for my family of 5 (now have a Cessna P210). I have been planning on a Beech 18 but the Twin Bo forum sucks me in every day. I am curious about the seating arrangement in the B's that haven't been modified with an airstair door. You have 3 across the front but how many seat in the back? Is it easy to get from the front to the back (as in young kids and a mom moving back and forth?)

I am in Tallahassee and must admit I am thinking Ft. Lauderdale is not too far away. I've looked at a million pics of Twin Bos now but have never actually seen one in the flesh.


I have a Twin Bonanza with 3x3 seating and without an air stair (that I bought from Gregg). If you look at the pictures of this airplane, you'll see that the seat backs on the front seats are all individual. If this airplane is like mine, that front middle seatback comes out very easily and can be left out during flight. I've attached a picture of my airplane with that seatback removed. If that back is taken out, there's a ton of room to move from front to back in-flight. It, of course, gets rid of a usable seat, but it makes moving front to back easy. This airplane appears to have two captains chairs in the back, but I imagine Gregg could help you get a different seating arrangement in the back (either a bench seat, a couch, etc.) to get up to 3 seats in the back so you could fly with only 2 up front.

With all three front seat backs in place, it takes a little bit of gymnastics to climb over the seat into the back during flight, probably not something I'd want to do very often.

With my family of five in the tbone, I removed the front right seat altogether, very easy to do, and now you have easy access from to back and easy in and out. The three boys were in cars seats/booster on the left side facing couch, and the wife took the throne on the right. The boys would rotate up to sit in the middle front position next to me occasionally... usually when the movie on the DVD player had ended. I'll see if I can find a picture to share. It worked really well for us. :pilot: :thumbup:




Found a picture. Not the one I was hoping for, but close.
It shows how the right forward seat flips forward to expose a non skid step pad for entering the rear of the plane.
You can also barely see that the two hinge points are simple easy to access bolts.
Conceiveably, two pilots could stay in their seats and the rear passengers could exit.
Hope this gives you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 12:55 
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Joined: 05/11/16
Posts: 111
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Aircraft: Cessna P210
Thanks for both these replies - The idea of one big seat and the couch in the back sounds absolutely ideal. My kids are 1, 2, and 4.
How have you liked your Twin Bo ownership? I've been investigating B18's, Commanders, and Twin Bo's. The B18 and the Commander have the wing spar issues - Both well understood but you are dealing with some AD's that can be a nuisance. I do a good bit of instrument flying and I will be going through some bumps. I really like the T Bone wing structure. I am aware of the bolt AD but that doesn't seem to difficult to deal with.


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 13:09 
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Joined: 01/07/08
Posts: 2558
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Location: Columbus, OH (4I3)
Aircraft: 1957 Twin Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
Thanks for both these replies - The idea of one big seat and the couch in the back sounds absolutely ideal. My kids are 1, 2, and 4.
How have you liked your Twin Bo ownership? I've been investigating B18's, Commanders, and Twin Bo's. The B18 and the Commander have the wing spar issues - Both well understood but you are dealing with some AD's that can be a nuisance. I do a good bit of instrument flying and I will be going through some bumps. I really like the T Bone wing structure. I am aware of the bolt AD but that doesn't seem to difficult to deal with.

Like this?


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Twin Bonanza
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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 13:14 
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Aircraft: Cessna P210
That's fantastic! What's the noise level like in the back? My wife is used to being in the back of the P210 and not having to wear a headset, but I am guessing the augmentor tubes will mean you need one.


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 13:22 
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Location: Kansas City, MO (KMKC)
Aircraft: 1954 Twin Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
That's fantastic! What's the noise level like in the back? My wife is used to being in the back of the P210 and not having to wear a headset, but I am guessing the augmentor tubes will mean you need one.


If you like that setup, it can be yours:

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=139160

I don't know about Chris' airplane, but the exhaust noise in mine dictates wearing a headset for comfort. Mine is a bit older, though, and I don't have the sound-deadening blankets in my augmenters.

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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 13:23 
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Location: Columbus, OH (4I3)
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Username Protected wrote:
That's fantastic! What's the noise level like in the back? My wife is used to being in the back of the P210 and not having to wear a headset, but I am guessing the augmentor tubes will mean you need one.

It isn't bad - my kids don't like to wear headsets (14 and 16), so they don't for short trips. I imagine it is louder than a pressurized plane, but the props turn slowly (around 1700 in cruise) so it's actually better than most twins.

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Twin Bonanza
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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 14:45 
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Location: Lewis Center, Ohio & Punta Gorda, Fl
Aircraft: Aluminum clown plane
John,
I've been in and have ridden in Chris's T-Bone several times. You will NOT be disappointed!

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 10:49 
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Aircraft: J-50 Twin Bonanza
I have several hundred hours of P-210 time and would say it's considerably louder than a NA Tbone is in cruise. Admittedly I haven't ridden in the back of either for more time than is requiered to fill a bottle or two.

The 18 is a fantastic plane and would be extremely spatious and a completely different ownership experience. Also quite a personal challenge as owner/pilot. Being prepared to go most anywhere most any time with your family in a tailwheel twin is a level above what most private operators are willing to commit to.

The Commander, well there's not much I can say on that topic as it's the classic high wing vs low wing conversation. Great views but the Tbone has a panorama that can't be beat...

As far as the family in the back goes, I would say most of the configurations would work quite well. The late model isle style with club in the back could work well. But so could the original 3x3. Jason Winter uses his J-50 with his family of 6. 3 kids and momma in the back and one kiddo in the front and he has relatively easy access to the entire cabin throughout the flight.

One more type to throw on the pile would be a Queen Air. Super cheep to acquire, more load and fuel and internal space than the Tbone and some were even pressurized and came with a lav.

Chris and Dougs plane may be a perfect fit for you BTW and it has boots to boot! Hardcore IFR really demands ice protection. No matter where you live. It is well exercised and ready to go. Not many of the planes your looking at will actually be ready to go. Many will need a bit of work or a large annual to get on there feet or some will be perfect planes that have only flown a few hours per decade and will be stiff and unwilling to begin to move agin. But, Chris and Dougs plane is a turnkey flyer for sure.

All the best

:cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 10:55 
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Aircraft: Cessna P210
Thanks, Travis. I think you did a "walkaround" of a T Bone on youtube. If that is indeed you I have watched it all the way through 3 times now. It is a great introduction to the plane and one of the reasons I now am considering it.

Re your comments on the 18 - My only tailwheel time was many years ago and that's a big concern. I have looked at some of the later tricycle/Volpar conversion ones but the useful load goes way down (besides which it looks entirely "wrong").


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 11:21 
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What is the budget?

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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 13:13 
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Aircraft: Cessna P210
Ahhhh the budget ....

WARNING: Don't read this if you wish to avoid knowing how much airplanes really cost to own and operate...

In my Beech 18 planning I expected to spend 170k-200k to find the best example I could, so T Bone prices are attractive. My current P210 is worth 160k-170k (assuming I get back about 40 cents on every dollar I have spent upgrading it).

The real budget concern is operating costs. In the past year of P210 ownership I spent a bunch on maintenance (including a really comprehensive annual to catch up a lot of things previously deferred). Note that P210's aren't ordinarily this expensive to run, but my numbers for 2016 were:

Fixed Costs
Note on the plane 10,692 (or opportunity cost on capital)
Hanger rental 2,700
Database updates 450
Foreflight 150
Insurance 2,700
Corporate/tax prep 1,400
Annual 7,000
TOTAL FIXED 25,092

Variable Costs (2016)
Wash and wax 1,000
Annual (extra “catchup”) 14,557
Non-annual MX 8,025
Fuel (100 hours) 10,000
Oil (68 quarts) 400
Filters 80
TOTAL VARIABLE 34,062

TOTAL OUT-OF-POCKET 59,154

Engine reserve assumes a 1,600 TBO with a $14,000 Top OH along the way and a $60,000 OH cost by the time you replace exhaust, OH turbo, etc. Thus, total engine cost is $74,000/1600 hours = $40 per hour.

Engine reserve 4,625
Prop reserve 400

TOTAL ACTUAL COST 64,179

Soooooooo... I know I can manage 65k per year. I would love to get by with the same annual budget. Obviously there is no way to do that in a Beech 18. My B18 ESTIMATED numbers for the same total miles flown as the P210 (based on compiling reports from real operators):

Out-of-Pocket Costs:

Fixed Costs
Note on the plane 14,000 (or opportunity cost)
Hanger rental 7,180 (ouch!)
Database updates 450
Foreflight 150
Insurance 7,500
Corporate/tax prep 1,400
Annual 20,000
Recurrent training 4,800
TOTAL FIXED 55,480

Variable Costs (2016)
Wash and wax 2,000
Non-annual MX 12,000
Fuel (173 hours) 34,600
Oil (300 quarts) 1700
Filters 300
TOTAL VARIABLE 50,600

TOTAL OUT-OF-POCKET 106,080

Amortized costs:

Engine reserve assumes a 1,600 TBO with $15,000 in jug replacement along the way and a $45,000 OH cost PER SIDE by the time you replace exhaust, etc. Thus, total engine cost is $105,000/1600 hours = $65.63 per hour.

Engine reserve 11,354
Prop reserve 1,384
Spar reserve 2,100

TOTAL ACTUAL COST 120,918

And ... This does not include transition training which for me is about 7k because I have to get a twin rating plus accumulate a bunch of dual tailwheel time (I'm lucky there is a local old DC-3/B-18 pilot)

For me this means I would struggle to run a Beech 18 by myself. I would need to find a partner, which begs the question of who else in his right mind wants to manage and fly a Beech 18? (It would be an easy answer for me because one of my life's great ambitions is to own a radial engine, so owning two radial engines must be even better - right?).

Some other potentially relevant information:
I regularly use a farm tractor - It is a 1954 John Deere 50
I drive back and forth to my office in a 1967 Series IIA Land Rover
I am not a "first adopter." Although I am an engineer who still spends time designing things I think I might actually be a "last maintainer" (The guy who inexplicably keeps running some piece of equipment long after everyone else moved on).


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 Post subject: Re: Here is your opportunity to own a great 1959 D50B Twin B
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 13:20 
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