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 Post subject: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 19:47 
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Joined: 12/21/09
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Location: Lake Forest, CA (KCNO)
Aircraft: 1991 Bonanza F33A
I am having engine issues and would appreciate thoughts and recommendations.

Engine is IO-550 TN I run it LOP It has 1750 hrs and I had new cylinders installed at 1200 hrs. I had 1 bad #3 and 1 marginal #4 cylinder at the time but decided to replace all 6. I ran my last engine IO-520 to 2400 hrs. The engine runs smooth - It was bore scoped 50 hrs ago at a ABS Service clinic and all looked good.

I just returned from a flight visiting the Whales in Mexico. My last leg was a 40 min flight from KCXL to KCNO. The plane looked good on the ground in KCXL. During the last leg 15 min in to the flight the #3 Cyl quickly went from 320 to 450 when I first noticed it it was at 380. I was LOP and 5 min into the cruise at 10.5 I leaned the mixture, it climbed within 10 sec to 450. I then put full mixture in and full boost. Temps went down to 330 but EGT was Low and down to 1300 (Normal was 1400). After 5 min, Reset to LOP and temps were maintained in the normal range. Engine was smooth the whole time.

Landed KCNO Oil Pressure lower than normal but in the green, Oil Temp higher than normal but in the green. When i exited the plane I had Oil Pouring from the bottom of the plane.

Mechanic checked today. Said # 3 had zero compression and lots of metal in the filter. Expects that it dumped all the oil out the overflow line. He is bore scoping later today.

Question 1: The Temp Increase on #3 has happened a dozen times since the top overhaul. usually goes away with the same procedure noted above. Usually on Hot day. Since I am running LOP my understanding is that this Cylinder is heating up because its getting too much fuel and thus getting close to peak. 95% its just fine. even when it goes hot, taking it lean or full rich and then back to lOP fixes the issue an it may not reoccur for many flights later. Since my problem is #3 bot times. what could cause this cylinder to have issues or change the fuel flow to be increased in this one cylinder?

Question 2: Since Metal is in the filter, do you recommend just replacing the #3 or a complete overhaul of engine and prop.

Thanks for your thoughts


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 21:46 
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Location: 5B2 Saratoga Springs, NY
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No way I can think of that fuel would enrichen enough to go from a normally stable configuration, on one cylinder, to being that rich.

That temp climb is sure indicative of a pre-ignition event, maybe leading to detonation when hot enough. First thought, since it has occurred more than a few times, is a tang on the spark plug helicoil getting hot.

Now you have to figure out how much metal, and from where, to make the overhaul decision.

Bummer!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 21:48 
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Location: Lake Forest, CA (KCNO)
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Bore Scope shows that a majority of the Nickel is off the # 3 Cylinder


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 21:53 
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Location: Lake Forest, CA (KCNO)
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Username Protected wrote:
No way I can think of that fuel would enrichen enough to go from a normally stable configuration, on one cylinder, to being that rich.

That temp climb is sure indicative of a pre-ignition event, maybe leading to detonation when hot enough. First thought, since it has occurred more than a few times, is a tang on the spark plug helicoil getting hot.

Now you have to figure out how much metal, and from where, to make the overhaul decision.

Bummer!!!!!



Yep, Bummer.

So, the first Cylinder went bad on #3, but no heat issues
2nd Cylinder also # 3, 3 sets of spark plugs in between. New plugs w new Cylinders and a 2nd set of plugs last annual.

Its got to be something but no clue what will take a LOP cylinder to Peak and not effect any other cylinder.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 21:59 
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Location: Palos Verdes, CA (KTOA)
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36TN
I'm no expert, but it sure sounds like pre-ignition / detonation to me. Do you have an engine monitor tracing of that flight by any chance?

What a bummer!


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 22:22 
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If an engine was making metal, I would at the minimum tear down and IRAN the engine.
Without at least disassembly you have no way to know if metal lodged somewhere else and you just have a disaster waiting. Such as a main bearing oil galley.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 22:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
First thought, since it has occurred more than a few times, is a tang on the spark plug helicoil getting hot.


Steve, you asked for our thoughts while knowing that we can't investigate your cylinder from afar. So this is a guess. I'm in Paul's camp. If the helicoil has a tang protruding into the cylinder, then you can change out plugs over and over but the tang remains. Your symptoms sure seem to indicate preignition possibly leading to detonation.

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John Whitehead
TN A36 Bonanza
Bourland Field Estates
Ft. Worth, TX.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 22:48 
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One protocol is to pull your #3 cylinder and check the brass in the conrod. Some are OK with a flush of the system and then check for metal. You're looking for imbedded metal shrouds in the soft brass. The theory is that this will indicate whether there is metal imbedded in your main bearing. You and your mechanic will have to find your comfort level with regard to how much metal remains after a flush. You may be able to replace #3 and keep flying this engine.

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John Whitehead
TN A36 Bonanza
Bourland Field Estates
Ft. Worth, TX.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 23:04 
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"a tang on the spark plug helicopter"
Can you guys explain that in an "engine for dummies" manner? I want to learn but I am stumped at "tang" and sadly "helicore". :scratch:
Thanks.

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It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill.WW


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 23:05 
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Location: Sacramento, CA KLHM
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Steve,
Sorry about that. Would have been MUCH worse if it occurred an hour or two earlier. The engine picked a good spot to self destruct. That's the very good news.
I think Paul and John have correctly diagnosed the cause. Sure sounds like the after effects of that cause with a hole being burnt thru the piston and subsequently the oil being pushed out the breather.
Tell Cathy she is going to have to pawn one of her smaller rings...
Glad you are OK..
Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 23:29 
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Sounds like a detonation event to me, maybe preignition but that I think you would feel with some engine shudder.

Me thinks you have some broken rings from that event.

I would not throw the engine out with the bath water yet. Pull the #3 jug and see what the story is. Contamination may be limited to the oil pan and filter circuit, which can be flushed.

- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 23:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
"a tang on the spark plug helicopter"
Can you guys explain that in an "engine for dummies" manner? I want to learn but I am stumped at "tang" and sadly "helicore". :scratch:
Thanks.

Glenn, these are helicoils. They are screwed into the cylinder to act as threads for the spark plugs. The end of the coil that goes across the center of the coil is broken off after installation. If the end (tang) protrudes into the chamber, it can become a hot spot for starting a preignition event.

BWTHDIK

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-> Don
If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane. - Jimmy Buffett


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2015, 03:25 
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This is a Bonanza, not a Baron. You were lucky you did not have to land off field. No way would I fly again with that engine until a complete overhaul. Is it really worth the risk of your entire plane to eek another 200 hours from that engine? If it were a Baron, I might consider it, but not with a Bonanza.

You are already very near TBO anyway, so it seams a very simple decision. As an A&P IA, a high time engine with internal damage is hardly worth thinking about.

Think of the increased risk of Hard IFR or night flight with a similar problem.

Just my 2 cents worth. I'd order a factory reman and exchange it.


Good luck, glad you made it to an airport! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2015, 07:29 
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Steve, what temperature spark plugs are you running?
29?
32?
36?
40?

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Greg Stratz
Stratz Farms


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Dumped the oil and bites the Dust?
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2015, 08:56 
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Stephen

I agree with Paul and John. Sure sounds like a cylinder runaway event to me. Sounds like it has done it many times in the past. What %power were you using and how close to peak were you, based on TIT or first/last cylinder to peak? I guess you were near peak at high power settings but I have no way of knowing that.

Like Paul suggests maybe a coil or plug with cracked ceramic as a trigger. A broken ring would also make sense.

You said that oil was leaking out the bottom. Where was it coming from? How much oil was lost in the flight, if any. If you broke a ring you could have oil coming from the crank vent tube, but not huge quantities. Same with the exhaust pipe. Can't think of where else it could be coming from.

You mentioned higher oil temp and slightly lower pressure. This should be as expected, with a heat event in the motor. When temp goes up, pressure goes down.


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