I am glad I found this group and I have already learned a great deal from you guys just by searching through the older threads on this site. I am a relatively low time ppl with about 250 hours. Just about all of my time is in Cessna and Piper models. I have just under 10 hours of retract in 210's. I started flying in 98, and rented till about 2004 when we had our first child. I was not really using flying at the time for anything productive so it was just a really expensive hobby. About 18 moths ago I got my first plane and have been using it extensively for business trips. My first experience with ownership was a 1962 Cherokee 160. I loved that plane! However I started going further and further and soon the 160 was just not fitting my mission well. It was not ready for IFR flying, and I could not see putting the $$$ into it for avionics knowing I wanted to upgrade to a more capable platform soon anyway. So I put the plane up for sale and it finally went to a new owner last week. Man the market is SLOW!

Now I am hunting for a new plane. I have access to a very new G36 with all the bells and whistles. Its in my extended family and the owner has his pilot fly it about once a month just to keep the parts moving. The owner has a King Air and Citation so there is not much need for a silly G36 these days (LOL), or his 2010 cirrus (LOL) but he loves these planes and has enough $$$ to just keep them around. He offered to let me just use it as my own however with virtually no retract time and low hours insurance on his 850k plane is an issue. So my first thought was pick up an Arrow II or III build hours go a little faster etc, then sell it down the road. However after waiting over a year to sell my 160 I started thinking I better make my next purchase a plane that I want to keep a long time. The path has lead me to consider a Debonair or V-Tail bo. I think either will serve me well into the future.At the same time I can build time toward getting into the G36 down the road.
Trying to find one is the tough thing because I don't really know much about them. The prices are all over the place in the market and very few planes seem to be moving. So I can't figure out if they are priced to high or if its just a combination of more planes then pilots these days. I expect GA to continue its decline as the govt and FAA make things harder and harder on pilots and as costs continue to rise, so I want to make sure I don't overpay. It seems like some people who say they want to sell their planes are just to attached to really let them go. Then again I don't really know enough about Bo's to know that. Are there any appraisers on here that can help me figure out what a plane is really worth in this market?

Another major question I have is about the 225hp in the debonairs. Will it be enough for me? I know more HP is always better but if I find a good deal on a 225hp debonair I want to know if I should jump on it or pass it by.

My mission: 90% of my flying is in the great state of Texas. No big mountains but in the summer time the temps really soar and there are some higher elevation airports in the western part of the state where I fly sometimes. I also plan on getting my IFR ticket and doing some IFR flying in this next plane. I have no intention of weaving through thunderstorms, or flying in heavy IFR, I want my IFR ticket mainly for getting on top of these thin layers and being more comfortable on MVFR days. I have never liked scud running and I am sick of sitting at the fbo waiting for clouds to clear. 80% of my flying is just me in the plane. 10% me and one other adult. 8% me the wife 115lbs, and 2 kids under 7 (today). 2% me the wife, and two other adults for a long weekend someplace.

Sorry for the long post here in my intro...Thanks in advance for your advice.

Welcome!

If you can fly the G36 just for the cost of gas, oil and your own insurance, I don't see how you could possibly beat that deal financially by owning anything else. So what if the insurance premium is $10K? Pay it, and fly the crap out of that airplane, getting your instrument rating and 150 hours the first year. Your second year premium would be less than half of year 1, I'd wager and no way you could own a comparable airplane for less than $5K out of pocket per year anyway...

Plus, you're doing your family member a favor by flying the airplane so he doesn't have to pay to have it flown. Win all around...

Jim you are right about the G36 however, there are other things to consider. For example even though I feel like I would have total access to the G36 it would not be mine. Down the road it could be sold, or maybe the owner and I have a falling out and boom I don't have a plane. 2) That thing burns a ton of gas and most of my flying is just me going less than 500 miles. I also like to just go out from time to time and fly the wife someplace for the $100 hamburger. IT seems like a real waste to do that kind of flying in the G36. 3) I have checked with several insurance companies and they have all said at this point my only option is self insurance, I am not insurable at all in this plane. 4) I like having a plane that is mine in the hanger. I like the way you think Jim, and your idea has crossed my mind!

Hah. As I was typing it, I was thinking, "this guy probably wants to own a plane no matter what..." And I understand that. Believe me.

It's very, very easy to buy an airplane, so if you did get caught airplane-less (falling out, airplane gets sold, whatever), you could fix that in short order with money. Until then, you'd be banking the savings.

You should be perfectly insurable at 250 hours, working on an instrument rating. It might be steep (like $10K steep), but I can't believe you'd be not insurable. If you want to check with some of the sponsors over there --->, I'm sure someone could get you sorted out. Airpower and TrueCourse are both run by standup gentlemen.

Again, not trying to beat that drum, as I can empathize with wanting a plane that's ALL MINE, and if that's where you're at, go get one that's all yours. If it was just the insurance roadblock or the fear of being planeless suddenly, those are non-issues, IME. I was insurable jumping from a straight-legged 182 to a 58P, which must be way less common than a Cherokee to BE36.

Also, note that when you say it burns a ton of gas, that's probably because it is being run with the mixture far too rich.

It should be running about 13.5 gph in cruise. If they are burning 18 gph, you know it's being run ROP. Unnecessary.

1) You could have a nosewheel collapse and be grounded for 6 months in your own plane.
2) Fly the G36 LOP at 55% power and you're looking at 12gph at quite decent speeds
3) Talk to some of our insurance guys 250TT you should be plenty insurable
4) spend $15K and get a 140. Tailwheel flying will sharpen your skills dramatically and it also mitigates problems 1 & 2. If you want something that is YOURS and has pride of ownership, a vintage 2 seat taildragger is a great way to go. For relatively cheap you can have an awesome plane that people will drool over.

Welcome Pete! Sounds like a great deal for the airplane.
Will you be trying some dual in it? Without previous G1000 time, there will be a lot to take in. But seems like a great deal to me.

Pete-
I must apologize for some of the ineptness that exists within my industry. I assume you spoke with several 'brokers' judging by your post and they advised self insurance or that you weren't insurable? Nothing could be further from the truth. You ARE INSURABLE in anything you wish to buy including a turbine - the question becomes are the premiums and dual requirements in line with your time and budget. Yes the premium first year is not cheap - then again an $850k hull asset value will drive the premium more so than your ample experience at this point in time. Good, bad or indifferent there are student pilots flying G36's and pilots with much lower time than yours who have transitioned and 'been insured to transition' into the G36.

Pete,

It's helpful if you update your information to include your city and state. Odds are good that you'll get some PM (Private Messages) from BT users in your area willing to take you for a flight.

I bought my plane with fewer hours than you have now. It's been a great experience for me and not unreasonably expensive for a working stiff. With access to those other two planes, I'd buy something inexpensive but well maintained that you can call your own. 33 or a 35 although I might lean toward an early model 35 but that's just me.


-Mark

Thanks Mark, I live near San Antonio Texas and would love to ride in a Debonair or V-Tail if any Bo drivers down this way would be so generous. I appreciate all the advice about flying the G36, but I want my own plane and plan to purchase either a Debonair or V-Tail 60s models look to be in my price range.

I would still like to hear what some of you think about the 225hp in the Debonair

Pete,

You have a great goal of owning your own plane, but you just can't beat the price of free. Even with insurance and maintenance the G36 will be much cheaper than the Deb. And the cost per mile is very comparable..... the Deb won't burn appreciably less fuel per mile, perhaps a bit less, but moot.

I could argue strongly to just do the G36, pay the insurance, get the time and enjoy it. Take very good care of it for the owner... clean, watch over maintenance, etc.

If it's sold, go to plan B. And perhaps, you'll be able to buy a step up from the Deb.

And, per your questions... any Bonanza or Deb will do your mission.

What Larry said.

I know several pilots who own multiple ships because they can.
Maintenance becomes the issue. Not the money part of it, just the "the plan" . It's a little like owning several homes. It eventually becomes "work".
So, in your case, you really are helping this guy by flying his plane. Planes need to be flown. Given the rest of his fleet, the Bo is probably low on his dispatch list.
Learn to fly the G and at the same time learn all about plane ownership: maintenance, oil changes, annuals, little squawks that inevitably happen, data base updates, etc etc.
Welcome aboard.



Oh, and, BTW, DONT fly a V tail.


You'll want one, trust me on this!

Ding! Ding! Ding!

I had a 225 HP Debonair and loved every minute I owned it. It had at the time late model Narco Avionics, HSI storm scope and Loran. The maintenance was not bad except for the Narco's and that early Century NSD360 HSI needed an overhaul at exactly 1500 hours, but that said, we fixed it and kept on going. We also blew an engine but landed on an airport, bought a new one and moved on from that experience Compared with a Baron which I am now keeping it was a piece of cake!!

When I bought it I had about 300 hours, no retract time to speak of and an instrument rating. It took me about 5 hours to transition into it and get signed off. the insurance wend down significantly after the first year of flying.

Regarding speed, I think I generally flight planned 155 to 160 knots and made it most of the time. Coming home one afternoon I caught up to a C210 that had left Albany about 15 minutes earlier than I had and we landed within 1-2 minutes of one another. I dont think I ever had to make any excuses for it and the only issue was ice and payload. For my climate, ice is the number 1 reason to cancel. I can say though that it will carry some ice and not give you a big surprise but I still remember the incidents like they happened yesterday. That is why I am in a de-iced Baron today. Even non FIKI is better than nothing.

I am sure that there are a lot of nice Debs around at fair prices. Mine had some issues with things that the prior owner let go that did not come out on the pre-purchase, but in hind sight they were not unreasonable. I suspect that there are Debs out there with lots of old avionics that you could spend a lot on fixing them up to today's standards. Or you can renew your AOPA membership and hope to win the one they have re-done this past year. !!! someone will certainly have a nice plane from that project.

Hi Pete,
I own a 225HP Debonair and I love it, I think it is the perfect size for your needs and it is so nice to fly !
To have its own aircraft is so much exciting.
We have an expression in France:
"When we love we do not calculate"
Regards,
Didier.