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 Post subject: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 12:00 
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Location: KCXO Conroe, TX
Aircraft: TBM 700
Greetings and thanks for the opportunity to participate in this forum. I'm a student pilot (at 53 its really interesting going back to the first grade) fulfilling a life-long dream. Its fun working through the process of deciding on an aircraft and its a littlel overwhelming, but I feel pretty confident at this point that:

A. I'm going to go straight through and get both my IFR and multi-engine ratings and
B. That I'm either going to purchase a Baron or a Seneca (if that word is permitted here) even though I know that I'll most likely be keeping an experienced pilot with me in the cockpit for some time.

My primary mission will be to fly with my wife and kids back and forth to Florida on the weekends and around Texas to see the rest of our kids and grandkids. A lot of that flying will be done at night and I just feel better having the second engine option---I'm committed to whatever training is required and to stay current with it.

If any of you have a perspective on the attributes of the Baron compared to the Seneca I would appreciate the input.

Have a great day and I'm looking forward to the future here.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 12:17 
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Location: Dallas, TX (KADS)
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Bill:

Welcome to BT.

Where in Texas are you? Good to know, so you can be include in events.

Also, you don't hurt anyone's feelings by mentioning a Seneca in here; if you need every bit of room a Seneca has, then a Baron won't quite do it for you. If you don't, then after you've flown both, you won;t want a Seneca any more, anyway. Seneca's a great airplane, but it's an industrial tool, while a Baron is more of a work of art, a musical instrument.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 12:20 
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Location: Appleton WI or Denton TX, TX (KDTO)
Aircraft: 1965 Baron B55
Hi Bill,

Welcome to BeechTalk! You'll find lots of great insight here.

Congrats on taking the steps toward realizing your dream and while stepping right into a Baron (notice I didn't even acknowledge the Seneca :) <grins>) could be a little daunting with low time freshly minted piloting skills, it's certainly not impossible to safely operate a Baron with the proper dose of training and experienced ride along instructor/pilot help for some number of hours.

I have no point of reference on the Seneca so I'll leave that to others, however, I will say that the bang for the buck in the Baron could not be better these days. Many folks unfamiliar with LOP operations and max range operations on big bore TCM engines might see the Baron as a gas pig and maintenance hog. Which is why they are such a stellar bargain in today's market. The knowledgeable folks hang out here :clap: and on the Beech List forum :clap: and know how to optimize their ownership costs of these fine performing machines.

I have excellent instructors/mentors/insurance/maintenance friends in Dallas and Tampa and fly between these locations often in my B55. If you would like a referral to either one of them just see their info here:

http://www.csobeech.com/examiner-referrals.html

or PM me if you'd like to visit CSOB HQ in Denton, TX (KDTO) for a B55 tour and some Rudy's BBQ.

Many Baron/Beechcraft ownership and operating tips are kept at:

www.CSOBeech.com

Mike

_________________
MC (CSOB1)

1965 B55
KDTO-Denton, TX
N2023W SN: TC-971
http://www.CSOBeech.com


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 12:39 
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Thanks for the great notes and the welcome. Great to see there is a place like this to make some valuable connections. It is interesting how few later model Barons I see in marketplaces like Controller.com. It makes me think that once someone buys one, they keep it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 21:38 
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Aircraft: 1972 Bonanza V35B
Username Protected wrote:
Bill:

Welcome to BT.

Where in Texas are you? Good to know, so you can be include in events.

Also, you don't hurt anyone's feelings by mentioning a Seneca in here; if you need every bit of room a Seneca has, then a Baron won't quite do it for you. If you don't, then after you've flown both, you won;t want a Seneca any more, anyway. Seneca's a great airplane, but it's an industrial tool, while a Baron is more of a work of art, a musical instrument.


Bill did not say which Baron.

Brand favorites aside, I prefer the BE58 vs the Seneca...by far. The Beech seems roomier to me, i.e. club seating and extended baggage, not a lot different than the Piper. Is the Piper roomier? Aren't we comparing apples~oranges? The Beech has either 285 or 300 hp per side vs 180 per side for the Piper. Useful load will be much greater in the 58 than the P and will be 25~30 knots faster.

The Seneca/Saratoga interior is wider but doesn't seem as tall in the rear seats and baggage areas. ???????

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 15:48 
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Aircraft: 2007 Bonanza G36
Username Protected wrote:
Bill did not say which Baron.

Brand favorites aside, I prefer the BE58 vs the Seneca...by far. The Beech seems roomier to me, i.e. club seating and extended baggage, not a lot different than the Piper. Is the Piper roomier? Aren't we comparing apples~oranges? The Beech has either 285 or 300 hp per side vs 180 per side for the Piper. Useful load will be much greater in the 58 than the P and will be 25~30 knots faster.

The Seneca/Saratoga interior is wider but doesn't seem as tall in the rear seats and baggage areas. ???????


Max, the Seneca V has 220hp turbocharged engines. Up high it will do a shade under 200 knots. I've flown it...its a nice plane. But it isn't anywhere near as nice as a B58 in my view. It is the same discussion as the 36 series versus a Saratoga. I'll take the Beech over the Piper in this contest any day.

http://www.aviatorsguide.com/botm/1104/1104_botm.htm

-Neal

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Latitude Aviation
Specializing in sales/acquisitions services for Bonanzas, Barons, and TBM's


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 17:12 
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Thanks Neil. :bow:

I showed my ignorance (again). :D

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Max Grogan

Come fly with me.

My photos: https://photos.google.com/albums


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2010, 00:57 
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Location: Austin, TX (KGTU)
Aircraft: Baron E55 Pitts S-1S
Before I bought my E55 last year, I too was looking at Senecas. If you fly both of them, you'll buy the Baron and never look back. I did.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2010, 11:12 
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Joined: 09/27/09
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Company: Coats & Evans, PC
Location: The Woodlands, TX (KDWH)
Aircraft: 1989 Bonanza F33A
Bill,

Welcome! There are lots of active Beech flyers in and around Houston and lots of great aviation activities in the neighborhood. Where are you learning to fly?

Drew

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1989 F33A N601BT
KDWH
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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2010, 10:59 
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Location: KCXO Conroe, TX
Aircraft: TBM 700
Drew I'm taking lessons at anson air at sgr. It's coming along and I just had my first Progress check ride. Right now I'm a little stuck on landings. All good right up to the level off and flare. Then it gets a little ugly.

I'm having a great time learning but it's a little frustrating that at 53 it seems the body and mind don't quite function in harmony like they once did.

This forum has been one of the best things I could have done. Lots of great and smart people to help guide thought processes.

Let me know if you're ever at sgr and ill buy you a coffee.

Thanks

bill


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2010, 20:07 
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Right now I'm a little stuck on landings. All good right up to the level off and flare. Then it gets a little ugly. bill

Bill, Let me offer a couple of suggestions based on my observations over the years with students (of any age) having similar problems at that exact moment.

First, your problem is not uncommon. To the best of your ability, try to RELAX! I mean consciously think about it; exhale, loosen your grip on the wheel, flap your elbows, look around, whatever - in doing so you'll be amazed to discover how tense you were beforehand.

Secondly, regarding technique, my guess is that you are visually fixating on the touchdown zone throughout the flare. Eyes so focused will invariably lead to poor and inconsistent landings, largely because one loses orientation to the surrounding environment and things appear to be happening really fast as we arrive at that point without enough clues to get stuff right at this critical moment.

So do this; as you prepare to flare, transition your eyes to the far-end of the runway or the horizon beyond (as if practicing power-off stalls). In other words, keep the big picture in view. Then, as you level off and airspeed decays (forget the airspeed indicator), slowly bring the nose up until landing attitude is achieved. Then it's simply a matter of comfortably nursing it to the runway with whatever combination of pitch and power may be required. Works every time!


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2010, 09:51 
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Jim

Thanks for the help. I'll definitely try that out this evening during my lesson. I believe you are exactly correct. I'm so fixated on the point I'm flying to that going from that state to becoming aware of my surroundings is difficult. I'll try and keep my scan going as you say.

Thanks again

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2010, 12:58 
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Company: Coats & Evans, PC
Location: The Woodlands, TX (KDWH)
Aircraft: 1989 Bonanza F33A
Bill,

You picked a great school. I am VERY discrimenating on flight instruction and Anson is one of the few Houston area schools I recommend without qualification.

A few thoughts on this stage of your learning:

1. Work on developing your own "aviation sense". Getting to know folks in places like this great forum is one way to do that, but so is reading voraciously (not just technical how-to stuff, but the literature of flying that allows us to connect with both the experience and passion of aviators throughout the history of aviation... any pilot who does not remember a useful lesson from Fate is the Hunter needs to read it again), talking with a variety of people at a variety of airports, going to aviation events, etc, and most of all, flying. Work on figuring out what you are comfortable with. On the one hand, the only way to expend and develop your skills is to push this limitation gently, but consistently. On the other hand you need to be developing that "little voice" which will help keep you out of trouble. This may be as simple as, when your instructor says you're finished for the day, insisting on another touch and go because you weren't completely satisfied with the last one. It might be opting for a day of ground school when you are fatigued or distracted, or not comfortable with some extrensic condition (i.e. what are the forecast winds at KSGR this afternoon? ;) ).

2. Landings improve with practice. Work on developing a love for pattern work and a sense of quiet accomplishment for each landing that was better than the last. There are very few things in life that afford such a complete opportunity to leave the ordinary stresses and distractions of life behind as doing touch and gos. I'm now a ~1,670 hour pilot (which makes me still very much a novice), but there are still few things I enjoy as much as an hour in the pattern. Parenthetically, I hope my BT brethren will forgive the heresy, but while our Beechcraft are terrific machines which fulfill a variety of missions as well or better than any other, I would suggest that pattern work is not necessarily one of those missions. Even after you acquire your Beechcraft, I would suggest regularly doing touch and gos in something much more basic, be it a rented 172 from Anson, or something else. I would think this is analogous to the satisfaction avid golfers, fishermen, etc. derive, but in all honesty I don't do any of those things... I fly.

3. While the G1000 is a terrific system, and you are wise to learn in a G1000 airplane if you anticipate quickly buying a G1000 airplane, I would guess that it could be a bit of a distraction in basic pattern work. The scan I was taught by one of my MANY CFIs, which I still use today on final is "runway, airspeed, runway, airspeed,...". Develop a feel for what the airplane is telling you in a tactile and auditory sense. Decide where you want the runway to be in your windscreen, then keep it there, while maintaining the airspeed you want.

Coffee sounds great. Or perhaps we can run out to Brenham for lunch. If you haven't done a $100 burger run, yet, it's a hoot.

_________________
Drew Coats
1989 F33A N601BT
KDWH
http://www.TexasAviationLaw.com


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2010, 22:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
Hi Bill,

Welcome to BeechTalk!
the Beech List forum :clap: and know how to optimize their ownership costs of these fine performing machines.

I have excellent instructors/mentors/insurance/maintenance friends in Dallas and Tampa and fly between these locations often in my B55.

http://www.CSOBeech.com

Mike



Mike

If I'm flying 150hrs per year what would the annual operating cost difference be between a 58 baron and a TNd Bonanza in your opinion. ?

Most of my trips will be between ksgr (sugar land, tx) and kpns (Pensacola ). 450 nm.

Thanks for the help. I'm ready to buy an airplane.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Hello, My Name is Bill Day
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2010, 16:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Max, the Seneca V has 220hp turbocharged engines. Up high it will do a shade under 200 knots. I've flown it...its a nice plane. But it isn't anywhere near as nice as a B58 in my view. It is the same discussion as the 36 series versus a Saratoga. I'll take the Beech over the Piper in this contest any day.

http://www.aviatorsguide.com/botm/1104/1104_botm.htm

-Neal


Late model Senecas do have 220 HP but IIRC it's limited to something like 5 minutes at that power level. And from the two Seneca owners I know, you don't run them hard enough to get 200 KTAS if you want the engines to make TBO. (something to keep in mind when comparing performance. 170-175KTAS is more like it.) They are noticeably wider with room for a big chart bag between the left and right seats and a double stack of radios on the panel but to me they feel quite a bit more claustrophobic inside than even a 55 model Baron.

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