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08 Aug 2022, 20:53 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2022, 22:00 
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Joined: 04/06/22
Posts: 3
Aircraft: Baron 58
Greetings all,
My name is Justin, 39 yr old entrepreneur and Navy Veteran from Austin. Seems like the time is right to step into an aircraft that can both get me and my employees to where we are going safely, while also giving me the peace of mind to haul the family around safely. Currently looking for a b58tc, used to own a piper cherokee 6, and drove citation 5s (ce560) for a few years a while back. Would love to hear from the community on advice about the turboed barons and things to look out for during the pre-buy. Also, if anyone has hangar space in Austin, I would love to have a conversation with you.

Honored to be among you, thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2022, 01:53 
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Joined: 04/30/09
Posts: 1517
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What is the mission (besides “hauling employees”).

Why do you think you want / need turbos?

How many people?

Any handicap issues?

Typical cargo weight and size?

How far?

How high?

You didn’t mention air conditioning, but you’re in the southern USA, where it can be brutally hit in the summer.

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Now - Battery Salesman
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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2022, 08:15 
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12539
Post Likes: +5019
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
I would second the why TC question. As i recall the big advantage of tc> na is useful load. Are you hauling 6 big guys?


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2022, 08:42 
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Joined: 04/06/22
Posts: 3
Aircraft: Baron 58
Username Protected wrote:
What is the mission (besides “hauling employees”).

Why do you think you want / need turbos?

How many people?

Any handicap issues?

Typical cargo weight and size?

How far?

How high?

You didn’t mention air conditioning, but you’re in the southern USA, where it can be brutally hit in the summer.



Thank you for the reply, Tony & Charles.
Typical advantages of the turbos, higher useful, higher OEI, higher speed. Less work on behalf of the pilot (although arguably more work on behalf of the mech & owner). It really comes down to an aircraft with few limitations. Flying over the Rockies, and getting through weather, icing, or turb are all justifications for the turbos. No issues whatsoever.

I honestly did not expect the thread to turn into an exact ask for an aircraft I’m looking for, but I’ll answer the questions on the additional specifications because you nice gentlemen asked.

Fiki, a/c, oxygen, waas. Essentially the go anywhere, anytime bird.

Our typical mission looks like 4 large men & gear for a week-long trip (plus pilot) flying around the country (US) weekly. Landing at CO airports on Monday, then heading to flat land MI on Wednesday, home on Friday. Typical trips for the baron would ideally stretch toward the end of its range which I understand is around 900mi or further. Sometimes shorter 2 hour quick trips pop up and my team is effectively missing out on revenue because of the occasional commercial flight into obscure airports which then necessitates a multiple-hour drive to get to their destination. This long drive + commercial flight scenario essentially limits our capacity and makes everything more expensive on the back end. Scouting some airports for locations we have traveled to in the past show some local strips with around 3500’ runways, give or take.

Thank you guys for your input thus far.


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2022, 09:21 
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Joined: 04/06/22
Posts: 3
Aircraft: Baron 58
Username Protected wrote:
What is the mission (besides “hauling employees”).

Why do you think you want / need turbos?

How many people?

Any handicap issues?

Typical cargo weight and size?

How far?

How high?

You didn’t mention air conditioning, but you’re in the southern USA, where it can be brutally hit in the summer.



Tony, I worked my instrument training out of Gillespie, but took my first flights at Montgomery, very familiar with the area. Some of the best flying in the world out there.


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 14 May 2022, 00:27 
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Joined: 12/04/17
Posts: 21
Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: Baron 58 tc
Username Protected wrote:
What is the mission (besides “hauling employees”).

Why do you think you want / need turbos?

How many people?

Any handicap issues?

Typical cargo weight and size?

How far?

How high?

You didn’t mention air conditioning, but you’re in the southern USA, where it can be brutally hit in the summer.



Tony, I worked my instrument training out of Gillespie, but took my first flights at Montgomery, very familiar with the area. Some of the best flying in the world out there.


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 14 May 2022, 00:30 
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Joined: 12/04/17
Posts: 21
Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: Baron 58 tc
Username Protected wrote:
What is the mission (besides “hauling employees”).

Why do you think you want / need turbos?

How many people?

Any handicap issues?

Typical cargo weight and size?

How far?

How high?

You didn’t mention air conditioning, but you’re in the southern USA, where it can be brutally hit in the summer.



Tony, I worked my instrument training out of Gillespie, but took my first flights at Montgomery, very familiar with the area. Some of the best flying in the world out there.


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 14 May 2022, 07:50 
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Joined: 07/09/09
Posts: 2834
Post Likes: +915
Company: Progress Technical. LLC
Location: Doylestown, PA (KDYL)
Aircraft: B-55
Just throwing this out there... If the travel is business related, your business has no business in a piston twin. Think King Air.

But seriously, that's quite a load. I think you will be safer and have more dispatch reliability in a KA90. Question is which one? I leave that up to the Jet-A guys

--paul


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 14 May 2022, 08:00 
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Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 4632
Post Likes: +1895
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
Fiki, a/c, oxygen, waas. Essentially the go anywhere, anytime bird.

Our typical mission looks like 4 large men & gear for a week-long trip (plus pilot) flying around the country (US) weekly. Landing at CO airports on Monday, then heading to flat land MI on Wednesday, home on Friday. Typical trips for the baron would ideally stretch toward the end of its range which I understand is around 900mi or further. Sometimes shorter 2 hour quick trips pop up and my team is effectively missing out on revenue because of the occasional commercial flight into obscure airports which then necessitates a multiple-hour drive to get to their destination. This long drive + commercial flight scenario essentially limits our capacity and makes everything more expensive on the back end. Scouting some airports for locations we have traveled to in the past show some local strips with around 3500’ runways, give or take.


That's not a Baron profile, that's a C-414, preferably a C-421C (due to the last line) at bare minimum and more reasonably something that burns Jet-A. Your first line rules out all piston aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 16 May 2022, 13:43 
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Joined: 12/04/17
Posts: 21
Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: Baron 58 tc
Username Protected wrote:
Greetings all,
My name is Justin, 39 yr old entrepreneur and Navy Veteran from Austin. Seems like the time is right to step into an aircraft that can both get me and my employees to where we are going safely, while also giving me the peace of mind to haul the family around safely. Currently looking for a b58tc, used to own a piper cherokee 6, and drove citation 5s (ce560) for a few years a while back. Would love to hear from the community on advice about the turboed barons and things to look out for during the pre-buy. Also, if anyone has hangar space in Austin, I would love to have a conversation with you.

Honored to be among you, thank you.


Top

 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 16 May 2022, 13:47 
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 Profile




Joined: 12/04/17
Posts: 21
Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: Baron 58 tc
Justin , I have a 58tc I’m going to sell. If interested 361 779 8947. Krkp


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2022, 01:12 
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Joined: 01/22/11
Posts: 1108
Post Likes: +1248
Location: Fort Worth TX
Aircraft: 737, C421
Agree with what’s written above. 4 Large guys and equipment and 900 miles is not going to be compatible with a Baron. Only pistons that would do that would be a 414A or 421C, and finding a good one is a challenge. A King Air or Pilatus is a much better fit.

Chris C


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2022, 12:44 
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Joined: 08/18/15
Posts: 430
Post Likes: +299
Location: Longmont, CO
Aircraft: 1978 58P Baron
Username Protected wrote:


Thank you for the reply, Tony & Charles.
Typical advantages of the turbos, higher useful, higher OEI, higher speed. Less work on behalf of the pilot (although arguably more work on behalf of the mech & owner). It really comes down to an aircraft with few limitations. Flying over the Rockies, and getting through weather, icing, or turb are all justifications for the turbos. No issues whatsoever.

I honestly did not expect the thread to turn into an exact ask for an aircraft I’m looking for, but I’ll answer the questions on the additional specifications because you nice gentlemen asked.

Fiki, a/c, oxygen, waas. Essentially the go anywhere, anytime bird.

Our typical mission looks like 4 large men & gear for a week-long trip (plus pilot) flying around the country (US) weekly. Landing at CO airports on Monday, then heading to flat land MI on Wednesday, home on Friday. Typical trips for the baron would ideally stretch toward the end of its range which I understand is around 900mi or further. Sometimes shorter 2 hour quick trips pop up and my team is effectively missing out on revenue because of the occasional commercial flight into obscure airports which then necessitates a multiple-hour drive to get to their destination. This long drive + commercial flight scenario essentially limits our capacity and makes everything more expensive on the back end. Scouting some airports for locations we have traveled to in the past show some local strips with around 3500’ runways, give or take.

Thank you guys for your input thus far.


You sound just like me, except I live in Colorado :) Navy veteran, few more gray hairs, running my own business and bought my P Baron for the same reasons. I do 3 guys + equipment, not 4, but my P baron is a lot heavier than the TC because of the pressure hull. I can haul a weeks worth of luggage and equipment from Colorado ->Arizona->california and Colorado->DFW->Indiana/Chicago->Colorado. Sometimes throwing Florida in the mix.

If i could afford a King Air or Jet I'd get one, but until I grow the business, the Baron is the plane. Guessing it's the same for you. For the reasons you state I agree with the TC. TC will have more UL, and you'll be right around the max range. As long as the guys are not huge, you can do 2 up front and 2 in back and be OK. Not super comfortable, but "OK". The nose hose is a pain, you'll want 2 Mountain High O2D2 setups (1 for the front 2 and 1 for the back 2). Before I had a pressurized plane, I had a TN bonanza that I used that I flew at similar altitude and needed oxygen. I definitely preferred the portable bottle vs built-in oxygen. Many of the smaller FBO's can fill a bottle, but not fill built-in oxygen. I'd get the portable bottle so you can easily get refills on the road. If you could by with 3 pax + equipment then I'd change to the P Baron. The pressurization is just a game changer.

I take out one of the rear seats to give easier access to the rear baggage and more foot room for the guy behind the pilot. The guys that go with me are ~5'10' 170-180 lbs and this is livable for them in back. For the guy in the rear seat that faces forward, he's actually comfortable and can stretch out/sleep. They can usually crash for most of the flights. On legs that are 2-2.5 hours, everyone is ok. By about 3-3.5 they are anxious to get on the ground. When I had the nose-hose aircraft, they'd fall asleep and wake up with headaches since they weren't breathing through the cannula, which would be the situation in the TC. Masks for when they fall asleep helps with the headaches, but makes it harder to fall asleep. The guys hate the great lakes in the winter. Really fast getting there, but coming back sucks because of the head winds.

I chose the P Baron for speed. Even though it's smaller than other planes, it's still faster (I average ~210 KTAS on 30 gph LOP). TC will be faster on lighter loads, same on full loads.

I fly my P Baron fully loaded into 3500' runways quite a bit, it's fine, and a fully loaded TC will be the same. I wouldn't want to do fully loaded into high elevation Airports with a 3000 foot runway, however, most airports up high also have long runways. As much flying as you are talking about doing, I'd also personally splurge on avionics. Make life easy when flying that much, and it's a tax deduction so take advantage of it. WAAS + modern autopilot to reduce work load and make life easier, and more options with approaches into small airports. Things I would look for if I was in your shoes getting a TC
- WB engines. Period. Preferably ones that are flown frequently (at least 100 hours a year)
- GAMI's for running LOP ( these engines want to run LOP and do great with GAMi's)
- FIKI / deice. Make sure the boots, etc, are in good shape and well cared for. Ice in the great lakes area is not to be trifled with. You'll also want to add iceshield's so you don't beat the heck out of the sides of the plane/
- RADAR (I installed a GWX75 in mine). In the area you are talking about flying, radar is a must for go-anywhere anytime
- WAAS-capable navigator. GTN750. Don't monkey around. A lot of smaller airports only have RNAV LPV. For business it's a tax deduction, so do it right there
- Since it's for business, I'd personally look for a newer autopilot. The GFC600 is great and tied in with a garmin system it's like cheating. Again, business deduction, so if you go into a shop, just do it all at once.
- Digital AI. G500TXi, but if that's too big of a step, a GI275. Vacuum powered AI's fail at the worst times. For a business, it's always at the worst times. Ask me how I know.
- Sirius XM (gdl 69): alleviate boredom on the flight with music + SXM weather is better IME than FIS-B. Again, the subscription is tax deductible, so why not.
- Keep the DME. I don't care what anyone says, GPS outages happen at the worst times and I miss my DME.
- MX history, make sure it's been maintained. Gear rod-ends, flap and gear motors, etc. Not a show stopper if it's behind, but it can be expensive to get caught up.

After that everything is cosmetic.

Summary: For your mission, I like the TC: it's fast and light and has a ton of power with a wide W&B envelope and low acquisition cost as well as being built like a tank with fairly low MX. Not the most comfortable for large guys, but for normal or smaller guys (especially if they are younger), it's no problem. Compared to a P-baron you are trading off the comfort of pressurization vs useful load. A TN B58 would be nice as well, but Gami I don't think has the STC available yet for the TN B58. If you could get the max load down to 3 pax, then I'd personally switch to P Baron as the pressurization is a game changer. But 4 PAX plus equipment (depending on how much equipment), it's a TC. Get a sample W&B and play with it, just to make sure you can carry all you think you can. My idea of equipment may be different than yours...


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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2022, 13:41 
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Joined: 10/04/19
Posts: 518
Post Likes: +306
Company: Brandt & Co.
Location: Jackson Hole, Santa Barbara
Aircraft: a55p2 & tw Pacer
Remember the 10k AFTT life limit on the TC, due to an inexplicable part 23 association with the 58p. Most actively flown birds will be in the 6k range already. Get one set up already, or prepare for a very short amortization period.

Also, don't get a 58TC. Call TAS in Defiance OH and ask them to buy you a 421C.

A BE58 with a pilot plus 4 guys plus equipment is freaking torture for 900 miles. Have you sat in the back of one of those things with 2 other large dudes? And are you going to make everyone wear masks? Or limit the TC to FL180? Or even make them wear cannula 12-18k? Just doesn't make sense. Down low the TC isn't an advantage.

-J

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 Post subject: Re: In search of turboed baron
PostPosted: 29 Jun 2022, 00:10 
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Joined: 04/30/09
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Username Protected wrote:
Also, don't get a 58TC. Call TAS in Defiance OH and ask them to buy you a 421C.

A BE58 with a pilot plus 4 guys plus equipment is freaking torture for 900 miles. Have you sat in the back of one of those things with 2 other large dudes? And are you going to make everyone wear masks? Or limit the TC to FL180? Or even make them wear cannula 12-18k? Just doesn't make sense. Down low the TC isn't an advantage.

-J


This thread is still going? If I understand the mission correctly, there is no Baron that is the bird for this job. I’ve owned both a Baron, as well as the Cessna 414 that I’m currently flying.

If you’re not financially prepared for a turbine, I must reiterate the several suggestions for a Cessna 414 or 421.

The absolute number ONE thing that you get is room and comfort for the “large guys”. For 900 miles (4-5 hours), you’ll also get a small potty. There’s club seating with tables, and even cup holders.

They both can operate out of 3500 ft long runways, but I’d probably recommend only the higher horsepower versions (RAM series, 325-335 hp per side) in the 414. Also, it’s all but required to have VGs on the airframe. While the 421 has 375 hp, it also requires a far more expensive geared engine.

900 miles is certainly doable, with IFR reserves, with 200+ US gallons onboard. The 414 can cruise at 30 GPH (LOP) total, and 35 GPH (LOP) for the 421.

Besides the engines, the two airplanes share the same cabin. Of course, they have turbochargers and intercoolers. You can get them both equipped with air conditioning.

One thing you didn’t ask for was a pressurized cabin. Honestly, this is a wonderful perk to top clouds and increase TAS in the flight levels. Your passengers won’t know to thank you, because it will seem normal. Another perk… people can actually talk in the rear seats without headsets. I don’t recommend that as ideal, but it’s doable.

I’m a USMC veteran.


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Now - Battery Salesman
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