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28 May 2022, 15:13 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 13:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
I support this move by Jeff and Jeff.

Three weeks ago I activated the Foe feature.

Two weeks ago I blocked the entire COVID-19 subforum.

Doing those things greatly increased my enjoyment of BT.

There are, unfortunately, a small handful of long-time BTers who troll, who bait, who demean, who seem to be here only to argue.

No matter how long they have been here, that behavior damages the experience for many of us.

BT is a unique place. It has changed my life with new experiences and new friends.

I applaud this active measure to protect it.

My thoughts exactly. There are a handful of narcissistic and confrontational members that enjoy baiting others. They are a huge detraction to everything that is good with BT. I use the Foe option after their objective becomes clear. Works good for me.
I would encourage Jeff & Jeff to exercise the exclusion option more frequently. It will make BT better...


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 13:54 
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A little passive aggressive going on even here.... ;)

But I guess that's better than aggressive aggressive. Although Wendy would argue otherwise.... :shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 13:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
One such decision we came to is that, from this point forward, if you are found to be in violation of the Terms of Service, especially the requirement for civility, your account will be deactivated without warning. Depending on the severity of the violation (and other factors) this may be a temporary or permanent deactivation, which we will take into account on a case-by-case basis.


FWIW, I agree with the sentiment not to punish too hastily and over react with a draconian policy that will yield undesired outcomes and unintended consequences. Continue to handle people on a case by case basis.

Why?

Well, lots of reasons, but I'll call out these 3:

1. BT can help people grow, but that growth is a process that happens with time. It's the unique nature of the forum and the members. It's not measurable, but BT plays a role converting insufferable pilot @$$ holes into kinder, gentler members of society. Be too draconian and this growth can't happen...for those willing and able to grow. No sign of such growth and respect for the rules and of fellow members? Gone.

2. One slip of the tongue/keyboard (or even two) should not get anyone banned, temp or perm. It's just not right. Offering mercy is. Removing mercy and giving offenders the chance to grow is not the hallmark of any human system worth being part of.

3. The boundaries for civility are not sharply defined and easy to police. Sure, the most egregious cases are. But there's lots of grey. So be careful of the burden you place on yourselves as moderators. Personally, I'd rather participate in a forum where the lines can be occasionally crossed and only dealt with when a clear pattern emerges, than one where people hold back or behave in a thin skinned, PC-like manner in the pursuit of some utopian civility standard because they fear being banned.

The issue here is one of consistently dealing with egregious repeat offenders. Your policies and enforcement should focus here.

My 2 cents.

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Russ N785RW
Things are rarely what they seem, but they're always exactly what they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 14:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
One such decision we came to is that, from this point forward, if you are found to be in violation of the Terms of Service, especially the requirement for civility, your account will be deactivated without warning. Depending on the severity of the violation (and other factors) this may be a temporary or permanent deactivation, which we will take into account on a case-by-case basis.


FWIW, I agree with the sentiment not to punish too hastily and over react with a draconian policy that will yield undesired outcomes and unintended consequences. Continue to handle people on a case by case basis.

Why?

Well, lots of reasons, but I'll call out these 3:

1. BT can help people grow, but that growth is a process that happens with time. It's the unique nature of the forum and the members. It's not measurable, but BT plays a role converting insufferable pilot @$$ holes into kinder, gentler members of society. Be too draconian and this growth can't happen...for those willing and able to grow. No sign of such growth and respect for the rules and of fellow members? Gone.

2. One slip of the tongue/keyboard (or even two) should not get anyone banned, temp or perm. It's just not right. Offering mercy is. Removing mercy and giving offenders the chance to grow is not the hallmark of any human system worth being part of.

3. The boundaries for civility are not sharply defined and easy to police. Sure, the most egregious cases are. But there's lots of grey. So be careful of the burden you place on yourselves as moderators. Personally, I'd rather participate in a forum where the lines can be occasionally crossed and only dealt with when a clear pattern emerges, than one where people hold back or behave in a thin skinned, PC-like manner in the pursuit of some utopian civility standard because they fear being banned.

The issue here is one of consistently dealing with egregious repeat offenders. Your policies and enforcement should focus here.

My 2 cents.


Problem is this occurs with a small but vocal set of BT'ers. Rudeness is like graffiti. After a while you get used to it and hardly notice it anymore. By that time it's too late.

Last edited on 02 Apr 2020, 08:46, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 15:10 
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Outstanding move Jeff's! I agree with much of the consensus here that you are being a bit hard on yourselves as you've created the best aviation platform and IMO, the best Internet forum I've ever been a part of. I've learned so much on so many topics here that I truly find BT invaluable. So, don't beat yourselves up. Even with the black eyes and occasional bruises, there's nothing like what you've created on the web.

That said, I welcome your more aggressive stance to those who seem to thrive on conflict and throwing daggers. I've said it myself many times that our pilot community is a tiny slice of the population and we should be doing everything we can to support each other rather than tear each other down. I know those who thrive on conflict and I just simply scroll right past their posts. Nobody here is under obligation to read the garbage that everyone posts. However, knowing that you're watching I'm sure will result in a more positive BT experience.

Keep up the fantastic job you've already been doing for many years!

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Don Coburn
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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 16:30 
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The information and camaraderie available on this forum is irreplaceable. I thank Jeff and Jeff for their work.

Me thinks - ironically - that while politics is currently a very polarized and emotional topic, "political comments" are not want are disappointing Jeffs' at this time. It's personal sniping. While it can be entertaining for many of us - comments usually being more emotional than personal - I see their point as heading down a negative slope.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 18:06 
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Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There should be civility

Things are often grey, rather than black or white.

Respect others rights to disagree (even if they are wrong)

There are way more good things going than less desirable ones.

I would suggest public reprimand rather than censure.

Steve Hake


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 19:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There should be civility

Things are often grey, rather than black or white.

Respect others rights to disagree (even if they are wrong)

There are way more good things going than less desirable ones.

I would suggest public reprimand rather than censure.

Steve Hake
Why nod public caning. Worked well in Singapore for years until the bleeding hearts took over. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 21:47 
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I applaud your ideals and direction, and think you maintain a great website. I just happened on this topic by accident, glad I read it. In general, I think most successful pilots want to follow the “rules”. If there are to be major changes to the terms of service or their enforcement, I know I would’ve liked to have an email letting me know there was a new, kinder and gentler BT world, so as not to inadvertently penetrate “Class BT webspace”, especially by some snarky comment I might think and make. IDK the logistics of sending an email to 60,000 people, but the CBD oil spammers sure seemed to have it figured out.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 23:14 
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Some 40 years ago I heard these principles in a talk and they've stuck with me all these years. They might form the basis of a "pre-post" checklist.

1) Is it Kind

Self explanatory, for the most part. A lot of discussions on Crash Talk involve dead pilots. There is a tendency to adopt the attitude that we are much better pilots than they were and would have responded much better when faced with the same challenging circumstances. Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

2) Is is Factual

A lot of discussions on Crash Talk involve speculation. This is unavoidable because most of the discussion takes place before final reports are released. Being dogmatic in the absence of facts may be a recipe for a spirited discussion, but not necessarily a productive one.

3) Is it Upbuilding

Is it primarily positive? Does it focus on solutions? Does it promote better and safer operations? Aviation in general? And if not, does it really need to be said?


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2020, 23:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
Some 40 years ago I heard these principles in a talk and they've stuck with me all these years. They might form the basis of a "pre-post" checklist.

1) Is it Kind

Self explanatory, for the most part. A lot of discussions on Crash Talk involve dead pilots. There is a tendency to adopt the attitude that we are much better pilots than they were and would have responded much better when faced with the same challenging circumstances. Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

2) Is is Factual

A lot of discussions on Crash Talk involve speculation. This is unavoidable because most of the discussion takes place before final reports are released. Being dogmatic in the absence of facts may be a recipe for a spirited discussion, but not necessarily a productive one.

3) Is it Upbuilding

Is it primarily positive? Does it focus on solutions? Does it promote better and safer operations? Aviation in general? And if not, does it really need to be said?

Love it. #1 and #2 are kind of a given, but we need a LOT more of #3.


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 00:25 
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Company: B777, 767, 757, 727, MD11, S80
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[FaceBookVideo][/FaceBookVideo]


It’s just like my daddy use to say; If you can’t say something good about someone by golly lets hear it. No,no I don’t think that is quite it. :beechslap:


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 00:32 
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Joined: 11/16/14
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Username Protected wrote:
I have nothing to add of any real substance.

Keep up the good work. Don't be so hard on yourself.

This is the best place on the internet.

The occasional time-out might help more than you know - both the forum and the person.

It's taking everything I have to not post a BAN HAMMER gif and giggle at my cleverness.


Nothing to add of any Real Substance? :lol:
Jim, You are one of the Fellows that always has something of SUBSTANCE and REAL Value to Add! :clap: :bow: :cheers: :bud:

Thank You Jim :bud: :D


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 01:33 
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Good on ya Jeffs. Things changed quickly and it course corrected.

So do friendly comments count? Because I just want to say something we all know.

If Sidney gets out of line suspensions won’t be necessary. Simply deactivate the emoticon buttons.

:rofl: :lol: :shrug: :dancing: :duck:

On the serious side, as a ‘local’ I truly look forward to your posts Sidney. :cheers: !


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 Post subject: Re: Our Vision for the BeechTalk Community
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2020, 05:16 
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Joined: 12/09/18
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Username Protected wrote:
I applaud your ideals and direction, and think you maintain a great website. I just happened on this topic by accident, glad I read it. In general, I think most successful pilots want to follow the “rules”. If there are to be major changes to the terms of service or their enforcement, I know I would’ve liked to have an email letting me know there was a new, kinder and gentler BT world, so as not to inadvertently penetrate “Class BT webspace”, especially by some snarky comment I might think and make. IDK the logistics of sending an email to 60,000 people, but the CBD oil spammers sure seemed to have it figured out.


I agree with Clinton. Sending this renewed stance out as a message could be beneficial as I also happened upon this thread by accident.

I am in the camp of giving a warning before suspension as sometimes folks do type before they think at times. I also don't like too much censure but we can certainly do without the personal attacks that happen at times.

This is the best forums I have ever joined. Keep up the great work.

-Steve


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