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07 Dec 2019, 10:37 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 14:49 
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Location: KUCY
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New member who has been reading a bit on here the last few weeks. I'm a 62 y/o student pilot with about 55 hours under my belt. I take my General Knowledge test on Thursday. I still have a few more items to check mark off the list of things FAA requires. Then it's tighten things up a bit before going for the check ride, assuming I pass the GK test!

I did most of my training in a Cherokee PA28. I recently bought a 1999 A36 which I'm having to learn to fly. To date I have 11 hours in it, and about 30 landings. Some good. some not so good. Things are improving though.

I had a little incident yesterday I'd like to see input on. Remember, I'm new to all this My plane is hangered in a community hanger. I've been calling ahead before flying to have them pull the plane out, and they fuel it for me. There was a misunderstanding and the linemen fueled the tip tanks. Luckily he told me about it before we left in the plane. We would have been badly overloaded. They were apologetic and drained the tip tanks for me, and credited the 40 gallons of fuel. It wasted an hour and a half. But more importantly to me, could have been dangerous.

The plane has D/Shannon tip tanks. I'm thinking I would like to have caps that can lock. Anyone heard of this? I think part of my pre flight checklist will be making sure I know how the tanks are filled.


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 15:13 
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Joined: 10/22/14
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Location: Jacksonville (CRG) / Sebring (SEF) FL
Aircraft: '79 TN F33A
Username Protected wrote:
New member who has been reading a bit on here the last few weeks.

Good luck on the upcoming written test. Welcome to Beechtalk, I have learned a great deal here in my 2 years of ownership.

Quote:
To date I have 11 hours in it, and about 30 landings. Some good. some not so good. Things are improving though.

There are good resources here and at the ABS website http://www.bonanza.org. "Flying by the numbers" will give you a good recipe for consistent flying. Here is a link to a ABS Webinar on V-speeds: http://www.absweb.org/5.html
Quote:
I had a little incident yesterday I'd like to see input on. Remember, I'm new to all this My plane is hangared (FIFY) in a community hanger. I've been calling ahead before flying to have them pull the plane out, and they fuel it for me. There was a misunderstanding and the linemen fueled the tip tanks. Luckily he told me about it before we left in the plane. We would have been badly overloaded.

Someone will be along to tell you to be present anytime the airplane is fueled. This will prevent incidents like you experienced. If you are not going to be present, especially since you are in a community hangar, I would recommend checking the quantity in the tip tanks as part of every pre-flight. The Dshannon's have a sight glass if I recall which should make this super easy.

Quote:
The plane has D/Shannon tip tanks. I'm thinking I would like to have caps that can lock. Anyone heard of this? I think part of my pre flight checklist will be making sure I know how the tanks are filled.

I am not familiar with Dshannon tips as I have Osborne's - hopefully someone will be along to let you know if locking caps are available.


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 15:20 
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Joined: 02/25/13
Posts: 3957
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Location: Jacksonville, FL (KCRG)
Aircraft: 1994 Bonanza F33A
Welcome, no idea on the locking caps. You mention that you are glad the lineman told you. I would suggest that you visually verify each tank before flight. It is also best to be present during fueling but sometimes that may not be possible.

Am a bit curious on the potential overload. An A36 can typically take 2 people and full fuel including tips. Did you have extra passengers in addition to your instructor? Also in some cases the addition of tips increase the legal GW, are you using the updated number if you have an increase?

Note, when the plane is heavier you will definitely see it in the performance and should practice some gross weight operations with a knowledgeable instructor before trying it on your own.


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 16:23 
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All good information. I will 100% check the tip tanks EVERY time before I fly from now on. It has now become part of my pre-flight plan. I suppose I'm lazy. It sure is easy to have them pull the plane out and fuel it.

As far as W&B, my instructor who is VERY knowledgeable on bonanza and has owned 2 or 3 helped me set up the software "Beech Performance". We used the latest info published in the POH to input.

Again keep in mind, I'm a greenhorn at all of this.
I just input the information into Beech Performance as if I'm taking a flight.
Main tanks-74 Gal
Tip Tanks-40 Gal
Pilot-225 LBS, that's me the fat one
Co-Pilot 175 pounds
Total weight is 3913 pounds and is in red, saying too heavy.

I can start playing with the quantity of fuel in the tip tanks and get these results
27 gallons ..Still too heavy
26 gallons Not too heavy but "Too Far Forward"

If I add 50# to the rear baggage area I get these results:
Mains: 40 Gal
Tip Tanks: 19 Gal
Same passengers
Rear baggage: 50#
Results: Too heavy

If I change the tip tanks to 18 gallons it shows within weight limits and Not too far forward on the CG.

Does this sounds like everybody's else's?
Hope this makes sense


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 16:36 
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Joined: 02/14/11
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Company: Air Mass Aviation
Location: Seneca, SC (CEU)
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
If I put that load in my A36 with full mains and full tips I would weigh 3,519 lbs. Does your A36 really have an empty weight around 2,830 lbs? I thought my A36 was a bit porky at 2,435 lbs empty?

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Remember, no matter where you go....there you are.

Scott Massios CFI


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 16:58 
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Location: Tahoe
Aircraft: Bonanza A36
To your question, yes keyed fuel caps exist. I am not a fan of them, as it introduces one more thing to break (or forget). Also say you want the FBO to fill fuel, you need to give them keys, get them back. Only half of my fill-ups are at my home base, so I would be handing keys over all the time...just seems like recipe for losing keys. But you aren't the first person to want them.

I have only seen them on the mains.
Here is a link for the locking fuel caps:
http://aviation-research.com/wordpress/ ... -fuel-cap/

If I was in your scenario I would have to fire up and sit on the tarmac and burn off fuel. In reality it would probably have taken less time to do that then what you did.

As Scott mentioned 2,829 lbs EW is pretty heavy for a non-TurboNormalized plane. I suspect the EW should be closer to 2,700lbs. Errors on Weight and Balances are common; given you already have a heavy plane it might make sense to get it reweighed.

For your vintage A36 (without a turbo) I would expect 2,500lbs as light and 2,750lbs as heavy. Hence it might make sense to confirm your number.


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 17:18 
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Joined: 05/06/14
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Company: The French Tradition
Location: KCRQ - Carlsbad - KHHR
Aircraft: 89 A36 TN, 78 Tiger
Something is wrong there.
you need to recheck your numbers and correct them in the app.

_________________
Bonanza 89 A36 Turbo Norm
Grumman Tiger 79


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 17:25 
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Joined: 04/16/10
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Location: Murrieta, Ca.
Aircraft: 1980 TN A36
Did I miss where you are located Ken?


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 17:51 
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Location: Jacksonville, FL (KCRG)
Aircraft: 1994 Bonanza F33A
Agree, take a look at your W&B. I would confirm both the Empty Weight and the the Max Gross and make sure your app is using the correct numbers. It does sound like the empty weight used is high even for a 1999. The newer ones are heavier but don't remember seeing one that heavy even with AC.


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 18:28 
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Thanks for your help. Here's the latest Weight/Balance reports I find in the POH.

One was done in 2014 after installing some modified windows it looks like. Weight 2,642.40 Useful Load 1,190.60 Arm 75.6552

Another W/B report was done in May of 2018 after some avionics were installed. Weight is 2,641.32. Useful load 1,191.68. Arm 78.67

Would I add the Useful load and Empty weight to get the max load? 3,833?


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 18:37 
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Company: Air Mass Aviation
Location: Seneca, SC (CEU)
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
With your stated empty weight of 2640, the fuel and people you mentioned takes you to a takeoff weight of 3,726.
2640+444+240+225+175=3,726 lbs if my math is correct. Much more reasonable than what you mentioned before. If I read your initial post correctly: that was with two people weighing 225 and 175 lbs.
I would want a student of mine to learn how to fly your plane at the heavier weights, but would leave that lesson until you had much more experience and some more hours after your PPL. Good call removing the fuel.
As you get more comfortable with the plane, learning to fly it at the higher weights is important. It is a different plane at 3,900 lbs vs 3200 lbs.

Your MGTOW without tips should be 3,650 IIRC. My Osborn tips give an increase of gross weight to 3,792 or 4,024 depending on which piece of paper you have with your STC.
Your tip tank gross wt increase is similar.
Remember- just because the STC says you can fly at those weights, doesn’t mean the plane won’t fly much differently (like a pig). Be careful with technique as you increase your takeoff weights.

_________________
Remember, no matter where you go....there you are.

Scott Massios CFI


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 19:13 
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Thanks Scott. There's a whole lot I don't know, but I usually know I don't know.

I am going to get my CFI to help me on this software to make sure I have everything input correctly. I have to have trust in the software. Garbage in, Garbage out.

Another part of yesterday's story. We were flying 100 NM to pick up another 200 pound passenger. I'd guess we'd burn anywhere from 90-120 pounds of fuel. We tried hard to make it work, just didn't see any way.


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 19:17 
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Company: Air Mass Aviation
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Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
Username Protected wrote:
Thanks Scott. There's a whole lot I don't know, but I usually know I don't know.

I am going to get my CFI to help me on this software to make sure I have everything input correctly. I have to have trust in the software. Garbage in, Garbage out.

Another part of yesterday's story. We were flying 100 NM to pick up another 200 pound passenger. I'd guess we'd burn anywhere from 90-120 pounds of fuel. We tried hard to make it work, just didn't see any way.


Don’t get caught up in what someone told you your “useful load” was. Just be sure of the empty weight of the plane and the load you put in it. Slowly work up to flying the plane at max gross and over max gross (tip tank STC)

_________________
Remember, no matter where you go....there you are.

Scott Massios CFI


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 19:22 
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There was a misunderstanding and the linemen fueled the tip tanks. Luckily he told me about it before we left in the plane. We would have been badly overloaded. They were apologetic and drained the tip tanks for me, and credited the 40 gallons of fuel. It wasted an hour and a half. But more importantly to me, could have been dangerous.

The plane has D/Shannon tip tanks. I'm thinking I would like to have caps that can lock. Anyone heard of this? I think part of my pre flight checklist will be making sure I know how the tanks are filled.


The makings of a good pilot! :thumbup:

_________________
I'm so thrilled. I finished a puzzle in only 14 days. On the box it said 3 to 6 years!


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 Post subject: Re: New Member New A36 Owner
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2019, 21:04 
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Location: Jacksonville, FL (KCRG)
Aircraft: 1994 Bonanza F33A
The software is great but you really need to learn the calculations so you can determine if the calculated numbers are realistic.


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