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20 Jan 2018, 20:39 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 20:46 
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Location: Pikeville, KY
Aircraft: Bonanza F33A
I did a somewhat recent panel upgrade that would have included the G5 to replace the standby vacuum driven AI. The previously installed Aspen is primary. It didn't get done because the G5 was extremely backordered at the time, and we also had several discussions about the need for a field approval to be legal in that application as I was convinced it was needed. I was told that others rely on FAA PS ACE 23-08; I was not convinced and was not comfortable relying on that in place of a field approval.

I called Aspen to discuss and their restriction on standby attitude is that it cannot rely on pitot/static for it's attitude operation, and the G5 does not. I read Aspen's installation manual that states the removal of pneumatic standby instruments and installations of electric standby instruments is not authorized by Aspen's STC and separate installation approval would be required. Trek and Garmin indicate that the G5 STC authorizes the G5 for primary attitude but not standby attitude. And that would appear in combination to necessitate a Field Approval for the G5 as standby attitude.

To address your question about which FSDOs have given field approvals for the Garmin G5 as standby, I would suggest contacting Sarasota Avionics. This summer I was told their Sarasota FSDO had signed off on field approvals for the G5 as standby. And they were working on other locations. I do not know all the particulars or details but was told they have a process.


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 10:49 
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Aircraft: A36, E55, L-19
Username Protected wrote:
The Aspen is certified for backup, can it be the “backup” for your primary G5? (Mounted off to the lower left or right)


This is a good question. One could remove the Aspen (in about 2 minutes), install the primary G5, then (re)install a backup Aspen- if it can be used for that.

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Paul Carper
1973 A36, 1974 E55


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 13:21 
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Company: atlantic transportation
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i agree with math guy...and p.s. if your battery solenoid goes bad,everything electrical dies. and i mean everything. give me a vac back up to get on ground
sam toler
cfii amel asel comm glider etc etc
45,000 hrs
c33 bonanza


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 13:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
i agree with math guy...and p.s. if your battery solenoid goes bad,everything electrical dies. and i mean everything. give me a vac back up to get on ground
sam toler
cfii amel asel comm glider etc etc
45,000 hrs
c33 bonanza

Sandia and G5 have a built in backup battery. That'll give 30+ minutes of time on top of however long the main battery will last so you'll have the Attitude info unless its a something like a lightning strike that took out the electrical system and displays.

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Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 14:15 
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Location: Pikeville, KY
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I don't think the (manipulated) order in which the G5 and Aspen are installed is the determining factor on which is primary and which is standby. I think it's determined by position / placement on the panel.


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 11:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Haven't been home to dig through the logs. I'll post tonight.

This is the 337 for the panel upgrade. Page 2 shows the paragraph on the G5 which refers to a minor deviation from the STC. This was cleared by the FSDO. Mine was not the first locally to have this setup approved.


I'm sorry Don, but this 337 was not field approved by the FDSO. It would have a stamp and signature in box 3. We do about 5-10 of these a week for various installs. This was the local avionics shops opinion, which as Garmin stated, is not legal. The G5 is not TSO'd, and that is because it does not have the lightning and HERF protection certifications it would need to be approved and TSO'd. My FSDO and a couple of ACO's have already turned this down. I even tried to get it approved just to replace the Standby Horizon, leaving the ALT & A/S. NO go. There are a lot stricter rules for standby than primary.

That being said, I am confident that Garmin is working on getting this approved, or some version on it. Who knows, maybe a G6 or something.
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Chad Morley
Avionics Manager

St.Cloud Aviation, Inc., MN
(320) 253-0480
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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 08:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm sorry Don, but this 337 was not field approved by the FDSO. It would have a stamp and signature in box 3. We do about 5-10 of these a week for various installs. This was the local avionics shops opinion, which as Garmin stated, is not legal. The G5 is not TSO'd, and that is because it does not have the lightning and HERF protection certifications it would need to be approved and TSO'd. My FSDO and a couple of ACO's have already turned this down. I even tried to get it approved just to replace the Standby Horizon, leaving the ALT & A/S. NO go. There are a lot stricter rules for standby than primary.

That being said, I am confident that Garmin is working on getting this approved, or some version on it. Who knows, maybe a G6 or something.


I don't recall Garmin saying it wasn't legal, just that it is not approved in their STC. Just because something is not approved doesn't make it illegal. If his FSDO gave guidance stating that using the G5 is considered a minor deviation, then it doesn't require approval. It's perfectly legal. I have seen this path taken before, I have also seen field approvals, though I am not certain they were required. Garmin has stated that the G5 was originally intended to be a backup instrument in the experimental world. There are AC's dealing with determining if an alteration is major or minor that very easily lead one to determining this is not a major alteration, therefore no approval is required. Unfortunately when dealing with the FAA everything is not always black and white, a lot of times it is grey.

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Daytona Aircraft Services
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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 15:55 
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Garmin Part 23 AML STC installation Manual 190-01112-10 Rev 10 Page 12 paragraph 1 General Description subparagraph 1.1 Introduction says: "The G5 is an electronic instrument display capable of operating as a primary attitude indicator, backup attitude indicator with primary rate-of-turn indicator, DG or HSI. This STC approves the installation of the G5 (s) in the existing instrument panel"

It is approved as a Backup Attitude indicator in the new STC.


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 16:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Garmin Part 23 AML STC installation Manual 190-01112-10 Rev 10 Page 12 paragraph 1 General Description subparagraph 1.1 Introduction says: "The G5 is an electronic instrument display capable of operating as a primary attitude indicator, backup attitude indicator with primary rate-of-turn indicator, DG or HSI. This STC approves the installation of the G5 (s) in the existing instrument panel"

It is approved as a Backup Attitude indicator in the new STC.


Not quite. From the STC AFMS Limitations section:

"The original type design approved instruments for airspeed, altitude and vertical speed remain the primary indications for these parameters.

If the G5 Electronic Flight Instrument is installed in place of the rate of turn indicator, the original type design approved instrument for attitude remains in the primary indication for attitude.

If the G5 Electronic Flight Instrument is installed in place of the directional gyro, the original type design approved instruments for attitude remains the primary indication for attitude.
"


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 17:39 
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No horse in this race, just following the discussion, but nothing in the last post says it can’t be a standby. Did it?

Seems if the original primaries are installed the G5 can be a standby. Maybe not with an efis retrofit...

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 17:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
No horse in this race, just following the discussion, but nothing in the last post says it can’t be a standby. Did it?

Seems if the original primaries are installed the G5 can be a standby. Maybe not with an efis retrofit...

Les


I think the idea is that the G5, as installed by its STC, be used as a required standby instrument for an EFIS system that requires standby instruments. If you want to install one as a non-required "backup" instrument in your panel (as a "backup" to your normal six-pack), probably nothing stopping you.

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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 18:50 
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That’s what I thought. Seems the efis stc would have the standby requirements more so than the g5 stc.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 16:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ok... Call me a purist. A very large portion of my installed avionics is made by Garmin.
And I'd like to keep it that way. See the picture below.
I'm currently on the quest, as many of us are, to eliminate air driven mechanically spinning gyros from my aircraft. They have built in obsolescence, and so does the equipment that supports them. Primary pressure pumps, back-up pressure pumps, system filters, and plumbing all are going to be on-going cash outlays when they fail. We all can use that money to invest and get rid of it all by going 100% electric. Taking advantage of solid state gyros that don't require pneumatic drive is the ticket for me. And, my aircraft already has them installed, including the necessary autopilot gyro interface capability. The problem is that, if you look at the pic of my panel below, the installer of the G500/GTN750/GTN650 chose to use the existing KI-256 as the backup attitude indicator. That's got to go. That's the only spinning gyro in the aircraft presently.
But it's not that easy.
As I'd said above, I want to put an electronic standby AI in place of the KI-256, and I'm looking to install the Garmin G5.

I went to several Installers, and everyone told me that they have the same request from several of their customers. One said I could do it if I installed a mechanical Turn Coordinator along with the G5. I'd loose my VOR indicator for the GTN650 if I did that. :sad: That was a non-starter for me.

So. I called Garmin and had a very long talk with one of their STC experts, specifically the STC's that carry the G5 into certified aircraft. I'll summarize:

1> The G5 is not a "TSO'd" piece of equipment. It gets its credibility from the FAA as a "Performance tested" unit.
2> It can be installed in a certified aircraft as a primary attitude indicator with the Performance certification under the appropriate STC's for that aircraft.
3> It cannot be installed as a backup AI without going through the TSO process. :bang:
4> Garmin has no intention of doing item 3>

So I asked this person, "What about a field approval of the backup installation with a 337? :scratch:
The response was that he knows of owners and installers who have been successful taking that path.
Asking if he could refer me to one or two of those, he refused saying he cannot divulge private customer information. Well. OK. :roll:

So I went to one of my key installers and asked about the 337 possibility. He said newly invented 337's are taking about a year to get through the local FSDO right now. But he said that if I can find an example or a copy of a 337 of someone that's already been down this path, the approval would come in a matter of days. :ahhh:

So. Is there anyone out there who has installed a Garmin G5 as a standby AI for a configuration similar to mine with a field approval via the 337? If so, would you be willing to share your signed 337 with me? I'd be really appreciative. :bow: :pray:

Would any of my fellow Beechtalkers like to step up? :pilot:

Thanks a million :thumbup:

Attachment:
IMG_3388.JPG



If you want a purely electrical back up and don't care if its glass, you can install one of these. Ive had mine for over 10 years and it has never failed.

https://www.gulfcoastavionics.com/produ ... cator.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 20:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you want a purely electrical back up and don't care if its glass, you can install one of these. Ive had mine for over 10 years and it has never failed.

https://www.gulfcoastavionics.com/produ ... cator.aspx


2495 for the unit, but holy crap 2195 for the battery!!! Must be a darn good battery. Id go for it if not for that. Kinda getting sick and tired of trying to find a backup AI.


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 Post subject: Re: Garmin G5 as a backup Attitude Indicator
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 20:24 
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I currently have an Aspen in my Arrow and a vacuum driven AI. Aspen provides the DG. I also have an electric TC.

I have been told the Vacuum AI is PRIMARY and the Aspen is backup only. I talked to Aspen and they said it could NOT be primary.

The vacuum AI used to drive my AP, but I recently added the EA100 so the Aspen now drives the AP.

The G5 CAN be primary.

So why can't I replace the primary vacuum AI with the Primary G5?

Carl


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