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01 Sep 2014, 14:31 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


BendixKing - Bailey Lauerman



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 Post subject: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 08:23 
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I have had my CFI for a year but I have never exercised it so to speak. I have the throwover yoke and I know I need a waiver from the FSDO I guess. Has anyone done this that can shed light on process? If I sell my plane I was wondering if I can offer an insurance check out without it?

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 10:58 
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I thought I read the FAA has relaxed the requirement for having a dual yoke for training.

Russ


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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 12:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have had my CFI for a year but I have never exercised it so to speak. I have the throwover yoke and I know I need a waiver from the FSDO I guess. Has anyone done this that can shed light on process? If I sell my plane I was wondering if I can offer an insurance check out without it?


As Russ mentioned, the FAA has published a NPRM that if adopted, will revise the regs to allow flight instruction in throw-over yoke airplanes, with some restrictions such as the pilot needs to have a current BFR, etc.

It will probably take several months or a year before it becomes law.

In the meantime, waivers are often granted; check with ABS and they can probably refer you to somebody that has done it. But the approval process may take a while.

-TH


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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 15:33 
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Micheal,

I wouldn't contact the FSDO about it. Just talk with you instructor or whoever might do your check ride and ask them if they have a problem. I have never had a problem with my throwover.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 15:40 
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Maybe things have changed recently, :shrug: but I am personally aware of one instructor that received a violation for instructing (aircraft check out) with a single yoke after the student did a hard landing with damage to the airplane a few years ago....

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 16:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
Maybe things have changed recently, :shrug: but I am personally aware of one instructor that received a violation for instructing (aircraft check out) with a single yoke after the student did a hard landing with damage to the airplane a few years ago....

There was a raging thread on the Red Board a while back. One guy was saying he's never needed a waiver because no one asked to see one. Therefore, he thought that made it legal.

And they ask me why I drink...

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 16:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Micheal,

I wouldn't contact the FSDO about it. Just talk with you instructor or whoever might do your check ride and ask them if they have a problem. I have never had a problem with my throwover.



Rick,

It wasn't for me to receive instruction, I was going to give instruction. If I sell my plane or if I were to take on a partner I wondered if I could sign off on the instruction without the dual yoke mainly for insurance purposes. I thought I needed the waiver to "instruct" in the plane such as for an additional rating but I wasn't sure if I could check someone out or legally sign it off as dual.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 16:39 
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Company: Dick's Sporting Goods
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Username Protected wrote:
I have had my CFI for a year but I have never exercised it so to speak. I have the throwover yoke and I know I need a waiver from the FSDO I guess. Has anyone done this that can shed light on process? If I sell my plane I was wondering if I can offer an insurance check out without it?


As Russ mentioned, the FAA has published a NPRM that if adopted, will revise the regs to allow flight instruction in throw-over yoke airplanes, with some restrictions such as the pilot needs to have a current BFR, etc.

It will probably take several months or a year before it becomes law.

In the meantime, waivers are often granted; check with ABS and they can probably refer you to somebody that has done it. But the approval process may take a while.

-TH



Tom,

Now that you mentioned this I recall reading something about it.
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Michael Broad
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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 16:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Micheal,

I wouldn't contact the FSDO about it. Just talk with you instructor or whoever might do your check ride and ask them if they have a problem. I have never had a problem with my throwover.



Rick,

It wasn't for me to receive instruction, I was going to give instruction. If I sell my plane or if I were to take on a partner I wondered if I could sign off on the instruction without the dual yoke mainly for insurance purposes. I thought I needed the waiver to "instruct" in the plane such as for an additional rating but I wasn't sure if I could check someone out or legally sign it off as dual.


I missed that. Your question is above my pay grade. I'll see a guy tommorrow that will know the answer. I'll check with him.
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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 17:10 
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Thanks Rick, I was going to look the answer up but I have to admit getting my answer from the forum here is a lot more fun. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 17:53 
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Location: Chattanooga, TN (KFGU)
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This is from the ABS website in part:
ABS frequently gets questions about the legality of flight instruction in airplanes with a single control yoke. Here’s the applicable Federal Air Regulation, with emphasis added:§ 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft…that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a single-engine airplane equipped with a single, functioning throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons when—
(1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.


FAA interpretation, enforcement action and some insurance claims history consistently rule that a Flight Review as required in 61.56 consists of “flight instruction,” and therefore dual flight controls must be installed. There is no room for interpretation requiring dual controls for any other instruction not specifically limited to “instrument” instruction, for example, instruction toward currency requirements, high-performance and/or complex endorsements, pilot certificates or ratings, and insurance-mandated checkout instruction (for purposes of meeting insurance underwriters’ policy stipulations).


Single-Control Exemptions
Confirming this interpretation, the FAA provides for exemptions to FAR 91.109(a) permitting flight instruction in single-control airplanes under certain circumstances. Exemptions require both pilot and instructor be qualified to act as pilot-in-command, precluding some types of training, including initial checkouts if the pilot receiving instruction does not already have his/her Complex and High Performance endorsements.

ABS’ training partner BPPP, Inc. holds an exemption that allows instruction in single-control single and multiengine Beechcraft, but only when such training is done in a regularly scheduled BPPP event (see www.bppp.org). BPPP's exemption is also subject to the requirement that both student and instructor be qualified to act as PIC.


A few individual instructors have successfully petitioned the FAA for single-control exemptions valid for instruction in single-control airplanes outside of BPPP events. Instructors wishing a single-control exemption must apply to the FAA at this address:

Petition for Exemption
Rules Docket (AGC-10)
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591


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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2009, 18:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
This is from the ABS website in part:
ABS frequently gets questions about the legality of flight instruction in airplanes with a single control yoke. Here’s the applicable Federal Air Regulation, with emphasis added:§ 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft…that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a single-engine airplane equipped with a single, functioning throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons when—
(1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.


FAA interpretation, enforcement action and some insurance claims history consistently rule that a Flight Review as required in 61.56 consists of “flight instruction,” and therefore dual flight controls must be installed. There is no room for interpretation requiring dual controls for any other instruction not specifically limited to “instrument” instruction, for example, instruction toward currency requirements, high-performance and/or complex endorsements, pilot certificates or ratings, and insurance-mandated checkout instruction (for purposes of meeting insurance underwriters’ policy stipulations).




Single-Control Exemptions
Confirming this interpretation, the FAA provides for exemptions to FAR 91.109(a) permitting flight instruction in single-control airplanes under certain circumstances. Exemptions require both pilot and instructor be qualified to act as pilot-in-command, precluding some types of training, including initial checkouts if the pilot receiving instruction does not already have his/her Complex and High Performance endorsements.

ABS’ training partner BPPP, Inc. holds an exemption that allows instruction in single-control single and multiengine Beechcraft, but only when such training is done in a regularly scheduled BPPP event (see http://www.bppp.org). BPPP's exemption is also subject to the requirement that both student and instructor be qualified to act as PIC.


A few individual instructors have successfully petitioned the FAA for single-control exemptions valid for instruction in single-control airplanes outside of BPPP events. Instructors wishing a single-control exemption must apply to the FAA at this address:

Petition for Exemption
Rules Docket (AGC-10)
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591




Thanks Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2009, 00:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
This is from the ABS website in part:
ABS frequently gets questions about the legality of flight instruction in airplanes with a single control yoke. Here’s the applicable Federal Air Regulation, with emphasis added:§ 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft…that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a single-engine airplane equipped with a single, functioning throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons when—
(1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.


FAA interpretation, enforcement action and some insurance claims history consistently rule that a Flight Review as required in 61.56 consists of “flight instruction,” and therefore dual flight controls must be installed. There is no room for interpretation requiring dual controls for any other instruction not specifically limited to “instrument” instruction, for example, instruction toward currency requirements, high-performance and/or complex endorsements, pilot certificates or ratings, and insurance-mandated checkout instruction (for purposes of meeting insurance underwriters’ policy stipulations).




Single-Control Exemptions
Confirming this interpretation, the FAA provides for exemptions to FAR 91.109(a) permitting flight instruction in single-control airplanes under certain circumstances. Exemptions require both pilot and instructor be qualified to act as pilot-in-command, precluding some types of training, including initial checkouts if the pilot receiving instruction does not already have his/her Complex and High Performance endorsements.

ABS’ training partner BPPP, Inc. holds an exemption that allows instruction in single-control single and multiengine Beechcraft, but only when such training is done in a regularly scheduled BPPP event (see http://www.bppp.org). BPPP's exemption is also subject to the requirement that both student and instructor be qualified to act as PIC.


A few individual instructors have successfully petitioned the FAA for single-control exemptions valid for instruction in single-control airplanes outside of BPPP events. Instructors wishing a single-control exemption must apply to the FAA at this address:

Petition for Exemption
Rules Docket (AGC-10)
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591




Thanks Tony


IIRC a recent proposed change to that FAR would eliminate the need for the waiver but retains the limitations (e.g. both pilot and CFI must be PIC capable in the aircraft). I don't think this has been officially made into "law" yet though.
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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2009, 07:53 
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I asked my local Transport Canada examiner if he would do an IFR ride in a single yoke Baron or Bo. His quick response was NO.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiver for single yoke
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2009, 13:26 
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A few yr. ago, I believe it was back in the early nineties, a father and son were killed taking off from Kremling, CO, in a Bonanza with a throw-over. The son was checking the father out, or perhaps giving him lessons, that I do not recall, but they stalled on upwind.

People with single yokes wanting to receive or give dual are good news for some CFIs as I don't do it and it's more work for them!


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