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01 Aug 2014, 18:24 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 09:11 
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Location: Dallas, TX (KADS)
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So, the issue is a Beechcraft airplane which has had sanding done to it in a paint shop; shop contends no damage, but top of rivet is sanded to the point that no dimple identifiable (in most cases).

Is there a simple and accepted (and most importantly, documented) standard for inspection thereof?

I figure if anyone has a readily-cited and clearly-stated resource, they'll be here. Please, if you can, share.

Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 09:40 
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I have nothing to add other than on one of the salvage sites, I saw an airplane that was perfectly fine other than having the rivets sanded down.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 09:50 
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Spike

I just took a brief look at AC43.13-1B-2A to see if there was any printed guidance relative to your question. I did not see any (as suspected) and conclude that there is no guidance because there is no acceptable amount allowed. You might try to get an opinion out of Beech (or other OEM), but otherwise I would put the onus on the shop to present evidence that what they did is acceptable.

Sounds like they are being a bit difficult so you may be forced to get a third party involved. I would think if the area is involved in limited, replacing the rivets in an acceptable manner would certainly be the least expensive route for all parties.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 10:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
Spike

I just took a brief look at AC43.13-1B-2A to see if there was any printed guidance relative to your question. I did not see any (as suspected) and conclude that there is no guidance because there is no acceptable amount allowed. You might try to get an opinion out of Beech (or other OEM), but otherwise I would put the onus on the shop to present evidence that what they did is acceptable.

Sounds like they are being a bit difficult so you may be forced to get a third party involved. I would think if the area is involved in limited, replacing the rivets in an acceptable manner would certainly be the least expensive route for all parties.


Don:

If I did not know better, I'd think you had my cell phone tapped! :D

Fortunately (for me), this is not my plane. Unfortunately, the area involved is not limited.

We'll see where this takes us.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 10:12 
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Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
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Username Protected wrote:
So, the issue is a Beechcraft airplane which has had sanding done to it in a paint shop; shop contends no damage, but top of rivet is sanded to the point that no dimple identifiable (in most cases).

Is there a simple and accepted (and most importantly, documented) standard for inspection thereof?

I figure if anyone has a readily-cited and clearly-stated resource, they'll be here. Please, if you can, share.

Thanks in advance.

I'm not claiming expert status in this kind of thing but it seems pretty clear to me that any obvious loss of metal from a significant number of rivets (e.g. more than a few percent over a large area) could impact a plane's structural integrity. Like most metal airplanes, the wings of Bonanzas and Barons get much of their strength from the sheet metal that connects all the ribs and spars (same for the fuselage WRT their skins and structural components) and removing part of the rivet had got to decrease the strength of that connection.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 10:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have nothing to add other than on one of the salvage sites, I saw an airplane that was perfectly fine other than having the rivets sanded down.

There was a Bonanza hulk sitting in the grass for years at my home base. Looking at it you could see that most of the rivets on the wings were sanded down and the story was the owner decided to use a belt sander to strip the wings before painting and the FSDO grounded the airplane as a result.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 10:18 
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Keep in mind that rivets are designed to take load in "shear" not tension. So the heads are not as critical as you might think.

Having said that....if they are worn past the point of identification, they probably need to be replaced.

I too went to AC 43.13 2b and found no guidence on inspecting the heads of rivets due to wear or abraision.

Call your local FSDO.....if you really want to stir the pot.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 10:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
Call your local FSDO.....if you really want to stir the pot.

Which may be a way of getting the shop to fix it. There is no clearer definition of 'unacceptable' condition than FSDO's grounding decision due to rivets sanded down. After such decision the shop can only fix it, they no longer can claim it's acceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 10:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
Call your local FSDO.....if you really want to stir the pot.

Which may be a way of getting the shop to fix it. There is no clearer definition of 'unacceptable' condition than FSDO's grounding decision due to rivets sanded down. After such decision the shop can only fix it, they no longer can claim it's acceptable.


...and this is sorta the standard, isn't it?

The question is not just, "is the aircraft structurally sound?"; rather, it is, "how do we document, in a manner acceptable to the world at large (DERs, FSDOs, IAs and, most importantly, subsequent purchasers) that the rivets are, in all material respects, sound?
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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 11:17 
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Another unofficial post: Back in the nineties, the shop I use was drilling and replacing many rivets in a plane, I seem to recall it was a Piper, and the guys doing it told me the owner had belt sanded the plane in prep' for painting, then painted it or had it done. The rivets were obviously flattened a bit. They told me that the amount allowed to have been sanded off was zero. However, I've never read any official guide or ruling on it. I would imagine a repair station could tell you for certain.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 12:25 
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Company: AirEvac Lifeteam
Location: ChattanoogaDayton, TN (2A0)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Spike,

An insurance adjuster told me of a case where a new employee at a paint shop had sanded a king Air in preparation for paint, well the insurance company ended up owning a 4 year old King Air that could not be repaired.....

I another life I painted airplanes (when I was young) we never took sand paper to a airplane. Chemical strip, and we would do some scrubing with "Scotch Bright" pads but never sanding..... Well except for Aerostars lots of bondo on a Aerostar..

Jay

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 14:24 
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Company: Well, it's UA now
Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: B-757-767 & C55
Every area has one of these stories.....

Guy bought a surplus-ed Air Force 310 and not being a pilot himself decided that the plane would be faster and look better with out all those "bumps" all over it. Yep, sanded down all the rivet heads in prep for a paint job before he was going to resell.

Needless to say he had a really nice if not large lawn ornament for many years before I guess it was sold for scrap.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 15:05 
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Joined: 05/14/09
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Location: Chattanooga, TN (KFGU)
Aircraft: 2004 Bonanza A36
Username Protected wrote:
So, the issue is a Beechcraft airplane which has had sanding done to it in a paint shop; shop contends no damage, but top of rivet is sanded to the point that no dimple identifiable (in most cases).

Is there a simple and accepted (and most importantly, documented) standard for inspection thereof?

I figure if anyone has a readily-cited and clearly-stated resource, they'll be here. Please, if you can, share.

Thanks in advance.

I suggest you contact Paul New at Tennessee Aircraft Services in Jackson, TN.
paul@tennesseeaircraft.net
731 424 7227

Paul is an expert for aircraft repair, and all the regs related to repair.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 15:38 
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Lots of these sanded rivets around, some shops dont care. :crazy:
It was an eye opener when shopping for a Baron 2 years ago, turned down 2 nice Baron because of sanded rivets.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanded / Damaged Rivets - Reference and Standards?
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 16:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
We'll see where this takes us.

Please keep us informed. Inquiring minds have nothing better to do than hang out here on BT.

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